HaLe
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by HaLe on May 26, 2019 12:03:06 GMT -6
Another valid Semi-Dreadnought is a similar faster ship (~24-25 knots) with 2x2 12" + 6x2 10" + 12-16 4"/5", belt ~8", deck ~2", used as early BC (like the Japanese Satsuma). This thing can make it in the mid game when used for 2nd line duties. That is roughly what i built in rtw1 for a while - a Mini-BC that crushes CAs. But somewhen i realised that there was another ship type to build in this weird phase between these Max-Derp-Pre-Dreadnoughts and the rise of actual warships:
At some point i realised i could simply build Super-Blüchers with those Main Battery Wing Turrets. 6x2 10" in a hexagonal layout, 12 - 16 4/5", 25kn Speed and as much armour as possible within price/yard-range. These things could shredder even the 1899-Battleships by sheer main battery volume while outrunning almost everything. And they didn't become obsolete for a long time since i didn't have to wait for secondary battery directors.
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Post by Gerack on May 26, 2019 15:43:04 GMT -6
I have read some people on these forums say that flash fires don't affect secondaries, but I have no idea if there's a consensus. I have no idea myself. For Rule the Waves 1, we have something better than consensus: we have the word of the developer that there should be no chance of flash fires in secondary guns of 6" and below. Whether or not that remains true in Rule the Waves 2 I do not know. So that basically means that any secondary greater than 6" is just a flash fire waiting to happen. Since they could destroy your ship just as easily as your main guns, you should armor them accordingly, which is just a waste of weight. 6" in casemates forever and ever (at least until you get DP, when it becomes 6" in single turrets forever on).
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Post by JagdFlanker on May 26, 2019 16:21:43 GMT -6
my personal rule of thumb is if i do secondaries bigger than 6" (which i used to do up to a couple years ago but never do anymore) i give the secondary turrets almost as much armour as the main battery
3 year old pic - early game playing A-H
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Post by dorn on May 26, 2019 16:22:55 GMT -6
For Rule the Waves 1, we have something better than consensus: we have the word of the developer that there should be no chance of flash fires in secondary guns of 6" and below. Whether or not that remains true in Rule the Waves 2 I do not know. So that basically means that any secondary greater than 6" is just a flash fire waiting to happen. Since they could destroy your ship just as easily as your main guns, you should armor them accordingly, which is just a waste of weight. 6" in casemates forever and ever (at least until you get DP, when it becomes 6" in single turrets forever on). It is not completely waste. Semi-dreadnoughts are certainly more powerful than pre-dreadnoughts. Their main disadvantage is that their usefullnes is quite short as they are built later just before dreadnoughts. This means that as soon as proper dreadnoughts are built (4 turrets broadside) they are completely outclassed. And they are usually more expensive than pre-dreadnoughts and quite similar expensive to this first dreadnought.
For this reason players usually do not build them and skip them. But for large nations it could be interesting to build few of them and use them in war. In this war they would dominate, but usually they are best to be first scrapped as they getting old they give no better value than pre-dreadnoughts and they are more expensive to maintain.
EDIT: look at previous post and JagdFlanker design. As you can see it is quite large and expensive. The first dreadnought with "HMS Dreadnought" layout of turrets would be less expensive having even more armour and still have heavier broadside with better penetration.
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Post by trifler on May 26, 2019 19:15:22 GMT -6
I'm going to try a smaller design that just tries to be a bit more powerful than the starting ships: 17000 tons - 2x2 12", 2x2 10", and 16 6", with 10" belt, CT, turrets, and secondaries. 1 torp on each side (debatable). Speed is 21 with a plan to refit it with a bulge, for a final speed of 19.
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Post by bigstick on May 27, 2019 5:36:09 GMT -6
My usual with predreds is 2x2 12 with 125-150 ammo 12-16 casemate 6in whatever i can fit of 4in. Speed is normally 18-19. 9-10in of belt. If playing as a country that mainly will fight wars in their home region i like to make a few that are short range and cramped. This allows you to devote more of the tonnage to fighting, in the real world these would be coastal battleships or monitors depending on nation. I do keep a seperate class that is medium range normal just for attacking different regions. My CA are massive at 14000 tons I do this to get a 23kt speed to be able to chase down smaller ships while keeping a jaw dropping armament. All of these do well as colonial ships later and now that this is RTW2 the CAs are my first carriers
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Post by griffin01 on May 27, 2019 7:59:01 GMT -6
So that basically means that any secondary greater than 6" is just a flash fire waiting to happen. Since they could destroy your ship just as easily as your main guns, you should armor them accordingly, which is just a waste of weight. 6" in casemates forever and ever (at least until you get DP, when it becomes 6" in single turrets forever on). It is not completely waste. Semi-dreadnoughts are certainly more powerful than pre-dreadnoughts. Their main disadvantage is that their usefullnes is quite short as they are built later just before dreadnoughts. This means that as soon as proper dreadnoughts are built (4 turrets broadside) they are completely outclassed. And they are usually more expensive than pre-dreadnoughts and quite similar expensive to this first dreadnought.
For this reason players usually do not build them and skip them. But for large nations it could be interesting to build few of them and use them in war. In this war they would dominate, but usually they are best to be first scrapped as they getting old they give no better value than pre-dreadnoughts and they are more expensive to maintain.
EDIT: look at previous post and JagdFlanker design. As you can see it is quite large and expensive. The first dreadnought with "HMS Dreadnought" layout of turrets would be less expensive having even more armour and still have heavier broadside with better penetration. Keep in mind that he probably used up a LOT of tonnage and cash on getting triple expansion engines to 24 kntos.
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Post by goodman on May 27, 2019 9:14:44 GMT -6
Of course it will work. Here is my 1927 refit of my pre-dreadnought. It served into the 1930s.
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Post by trifler on May 30, 2019 0:07:52 GMT -6
I found that there is an additional capability that is unlocked by the Medium Secondary Wing Turrets tech: It also unlocks primary wing turrets for armored cruisers. So, I designed a 1902 CA with double 10" forward and aft, and a single 10" mid-deck port and starboard. Having all primary armament seems more interesting somehow, although flash fires are probably more of a concern since there isn't nearly as much armor. Still, it isn't any worse than the same ship without wing turrets.
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Post by fleet5 on May 30, 2019 7:55:07 GMT -6
I wouldn't build heavy secondaries because of the hit probability penalty(distinguishing shell splashes is difficult), secondly they can flash fire if the protection isn't high enough and thirdly, no fire control for them.
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Post by trifler on May 30, 2019 17:38:22 GMT -6
I wouldn't build heavy secondaries because of the hit probability penalty(distinguishing shell splashes is difficult), secondly they can flash fire if the protection isn't high enough and thirdly, no fire control for them. I guess I'll focus more on my armored cruisers with wing turrets, since they can do it with the primary armament.
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Post by arminpfano on May 31, 2019 6:36:23 GMT -6
My standard setup for Germany (RTW1 and RTW2) for the heritage fleet CA is 14.000 ts 4x11 / 16x7. I build no Bs but only this type, for cruiser battles and also for fleet battles. Up to now I encountered no single case of a lost one due to a turret flash of a secondary gun, although they regularely got shot badly. So it seems the risk of such an event is quite minimal, at least when built in casemates.
On the other hand I lost several CLs due to 6" turret flashes.
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