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Post by southkraut on May 27, 2019 4:04:52 GMT -6
In RTW1 at least, there was also an undocumented maximum (12, IIRC) of forts that would even appear in battle. There was a mod that buffed fortress guns' range and accuracy while, I think, reducing their upkeep. That actually elevated them to general usefulness for any territories with a short coastline.
But in RTW2, you're better off investing in airbases.
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Post by tbr on May 27, 2019 4:44:25 GMT -6
In RTW1 at least, there was also an undocumented maximum (12, IIRC) of forts that would even appear in battle. There was a mod that buffed fortress guns' range and accuracy while, I think, reducing their upkeep. That actually elevated them to general usefulness for any territories with a short coastline. But in RTW2, you're better off investing in airbases. I did redo that mod for my own purposes in RTW2. Coastal batteries are better but not overwhelming. I massively reduced maintenance (to simulate them being manned by reservists/draftees/colonial militia), gave all guns IE and quality 1 and added a 50 ROF and 80 Accuracy bonus. Also, to cope with the island placed batteries "rear" I changed the gunpos to fore&aft guns to get 360° coverage. I am still looking at battle behaviour and currently feel that even the 80 accuracy bonus is not enough but still need some more datapoints. I think RTW2 added a hidden accuracy modifier based on gun number (salvo size) that makes the 4 gun batteries less effective relatively speaking.
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Post by dizzy on May 27, 2019 4:52:38 GMT -6
I'd love it if people would stop speculating like they know how the code works. What do more numerous and larger caliber coastal batteries do vs the Invasion mechanic on the strategic level? That's all I need to know. We are all very aware of how they work (and don't) in battle and don't need to know anything about that.
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Post by Fredrik W on May 27, 2019 12:38:13 GMT -6
Coastal batteries do influence the chance of an invasion, but only to a certain extent. You cannot expect them to guarantee a possession is invasion free, but they will lower the chance of an invasion triggering. If the enemy has overwhelming strength in the area though, they won't help much.
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Post by aeson on May 27, 2019 13:18:45 GMT -6
this is a definitive answer to me because i don't gamble. i spent all that cash building a defense and it did nothing - even if there was a 0.00000001% of this specific outcome happening that is enough to deter me from ever building coastal batteries again I take it that you don't bother with torpedo protection, armor, speed, or secondary/tertiary guns intended to ward off destroyer-launched torpedo attack, either. After all, none of those things is guaranteed to save your ship from destruction, so by the logic you expressed above why bother investing in it?
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Post by dougphresh on May 27, 2019 13:34:57 GMT -6
Would it be possible to play the invasion scenario commanding the patrol boats, MTBs and coastal guns if I have no major ships in the area?
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Post by JagdFlanker on May 27, 2019 16:05:42 GMT -6
this is a definitive answer to me because i don't gamble. i spent all that cash building a defense and it did nothing - even if there was a 0.00000001% of this specific outcome happening that is enough to deter me from ever building coastal batteries again I take it that you don't bother with torpedo protection, armor, speed, or secondary/tertiary guns intended to ward off destroyer-launched torpedo attack, either. After all, none of those things is guaranteed to save your ship from destruction, so by the logic you expressed above why bother investing in it? ships are worth investing in because they give me results - coastal batteries are not because they have no redeeming qualities
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Post by aeson on May 27, 2019 17:28:54 GMT -6
ships are worth investing in because they give me results - coastal batteries are not because they have no redeeming qualities Coastal batteries and the minefields that they create occasionally come into play in naval engagements - I once lost a CA to a shot from a 6" coastal battery, I have on several occasions successfully sheltered otherwise-outmatched forces under the guns of one or more coastal batteries, I have a few times seen the computer's ships strike mines laid around my coastal batteries and am pretty sure that some of my ships have struck mines laid by the computer's coastal batteries during coastal raids, I have seen the computer refuse to attack a bombardment target in a bombardment mission because a 12" battery was sitting right next to the bombardment target, and I have seen coastal batteries mess up surprise attacks as both the attacker and the defender - and Fredrik stated just a couple posts above this that they also do something against invasions. Your assertion that coastal batteries have no redeeming qualities is patently false.
What coastal batteries are missing is not value, it's the information necessary to quantify their value in any more than an anecdotal fashion.
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Post by mycophobia on May 27, 2019 17:40:51 GMT -6
Battery isn't useless, they are just usually grossly cost-ineffective. As Russia I do like to put them in port-Arthur to prevent any Japanese surprise attacks. Otherwise I tend to plop down a couple 8/10in ones early on when I have spare money and if they do anything it'd be a pleasant surprise.
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Post by aetreus on May 27, 2019 20:11:22 GMT -6
There should probably be a way to reuse old guns as you scrap legacy ships for CD purposes. Many of the guns historically emplaced were provided from decommissioned ships to be used for CD purposes.
I'd also like to see some techs that influence them as well. Longer spotting range on CD guns from elevated positions, CD battery radar, attached AA guns, eventually even "mobile" CD guns that have a chance to spawn in territories randomly.
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Post by southkraut on May 28, 2019 1:32:20 GMT -6
After a certain date (1928? Don't quote me on that.), coastal batteries do receive some AA guns.
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Post by XthLegion on May 28, 2019 20:06:10 GMT -6
Reference coastal fortifications, in my current "learning how the game works" play through as the Germans (1920 start), I fortified Bermuda with 4 14-inch turret batteries. I also had a 40 plane airbase and an airship base. During a war with the USA, the US Navy attempted an amphibious landing. I had one light cruiser in the area which sailed away from the invasion fleet as quickly as possible. The 14-inch batteries sank one light carrier and one large transport, with only one battery being knocked out. At that point, the US Navy invasion fleet sailed off in defeat. So in this specific instance the batteries worked. Whether that is a cost effective way to defend possessions is an entirely different discussion. I'm not suggesting this is the way to go, just that it can work. I never use light or medium gun batteries and in my game experience they rarely contribute anything to a battle. In RTW1 on islands such as Bermuda or high value regions with oil or transit canals such as Panama and Egypt, I will sometimes build heavy gun batteries. It depends on my budget and who I am defending against.
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Post by klavohunter on May 28, 2019 22:24:08 GMT -6
After a certain date (1928? Don't quote me on that.), coastal batteries do receive some AA guns. I've been tempted to add extra coastal gun batteries just to add more AA defense for my Airbases.
(The real solution was just to make the Airbase bigger and add 20 more Fighters.)
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Post by brygun on May 29, 2019 17:52:40 GMT -6
There should probably be a way to reuse old guns as you scrap legacy ships for CD purposes. Many of the guns historically emplaced were provided from decommissioned ships to be used for CD purposes. I'd also like to see some techs that influence them as well. Longer spotting range on CD guns from elevated positions, CD battery radar, attached AA guns, eventually even "mobile" CD guns that have a chance to spawn in territories randomly. Espically now that we go into the carrier age with carrier conversions dismounting original game start 12 inch and up guns into coastal defence is logical. Adding a suggestion about that to the suggestion threads is also a good idea. Going to go throw mine in there now.
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Post by slipstream on May 30, 2019 3:54:27 GMT -6
ships are worth investing in because they give me results - coastal batteries are not because they have no redeeming qualities Coastal batteries and the minefields that they create occasionally come into play in naval engagements - I once lost a CA to a shot from a 6" coastal battery, I have on several occasions successfully sheltered otherwise-outmatched forces under the guns of one or more coastal batteries, I have a few times seen the computer's ships strike mines laid around my coastal batteries and am pretty sure that some of my ships have struck mines laid by the computer's coastal batteries during coastal raids, I have seen the computer refuse to attack a bombardment target in a bombardment mission because a 12" battery was sitting right next to the bombardment target, and I have seen coastal batteries mess up surprise attacks as both the attacker and the defender - and Fredrik stated just a couple posts above this that they also do something against invasions. Your assertion that coastal batteries have no redeeming qualities is patently false.
What coastal batteries are missing is not value, it's the information necessary to quantify their value in any more than an anecdotal fashion.
I have to agree with JagdFlanker in that I don't see any difference in my games whether I have a a lot of coastal batteries or not. I try to emulate what a "real" supreme naval commander would do to protect his territories and place at least one medium/heavy battery (8-10") in all of my territories, but I honestly don't see what difference it ever makes. Sure, there are lots of tiny minefield dots that spring up eventually around my base, but they are way too small and way too spread out to do any good. And why would placing a coastal battery somewhere help spawn minefields? Shouldn't that really be the work of mine-laying ships that you have based in that sea area? I have never understood the rationale behind that game mechanic. Minefields should be concentrated around harbors and inside of choke points, and laid by ships, not garrisons.
Long story short, I can't choose where to place my coastal batteries (they always get built in the same place ), they are a nonissue to most naval battles I've seen, the AI NEVER BUILDS THEM (not in my games, anyway), and frankly, their build cost and maintenance just gets too expensive over time for whatever effect they are supposed to have in the game. I wish that they had some real tangible effect (other than the aforementioned minefields), because I know that I would definitely use them to augment my meager forces in some distant locale, just like they were used IRL in WWII. And I would love to be able to manually place my coastal batteries myself (at choke points, and right next to my naval bases), instead of having them built uselessly away from any potential action.
And to be honest, concerning your own reply, Aeson, I never liked the idea of having these "old bombardment targets" that we are supposed to destroy anyway. Coastal batteries themselves SHOULD BE THE BOMBARDMENT TARGET!! Your 12" battery should be the bombardment target, not some old abandoned pillbox or whatever. I never understood that reasoning either, and I hope it will get fixed someday. Does the AI want to invade one of your territories? Then it should have to knock out that 12" coastal battery that you have built there, or be prepared to suffer the consequences. And if you DON'T HAVE a coastal battery protecting your territory? Oh well, the invasion will be a cakewalk, and you'll lose one prestige. Now, that's how I wish coastal batteries would be used -- to really defend territories against invasion, and take an active and leading role in defending them.
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