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Post by yemo on May 26, 2019 12:09:32 GMT -6
Do Coastal Batteries have an effect on invasions?
I would seriously consider some, if they would make it more difficult/unlikely that the British can just walk in.
Imho having a 12inch and a 6inch battery should make it pretty much impossible for 3 protected cruisers to invade, just because my ships are somewhere else for a month.
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Post by aeson on May 26, 2019 13:42:17 GMT -6
Imho having a 12inch and a 6inch battery should make it pretty much impossible for 3 protected cruisers to invade, just because my ships are somewhere else for a month. Yes, I'm sure a 12" and a 6" battery at, say, Cape Town would do an excellent job of stopping a landing supported by a few small old cruisers at Durban or Port Elizabeth.
A couple batteries might be sufficient defense against a coup de main at a tiny possession like the Tsingtau/Kiautschau Bay concession territory, but it'd be woefully inadequate for most other possessions, realistically speaking. Even at a smaller possession, merely having the guns is not necessarily enough to protect the territory - just look at the fall of Singapore in the Second World War.
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Post by Gerack on May 26, 2019 15:35:14 GMT -6
Are batteries worth it at all? I never get any use out of them, and while their maintenance is not too great, it isn't exactly free either.
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Post by splashell on May 26, 2019 15:52:18 GMT -6
Are batteries worth it at all? I never get any use out of them, and while their maintenance is not too great, it isn't exactly free either. The more you have them the higher chance they have engaging enemy raiding forces, or you can lure enemy fleets towards them and potential mines. Though the question whether useful against invasions I would like to know as well. Probably only if the invasion site happens to locate next to a battery, but haven't seen that happen yet. Most certainly on some atolls and islands they have the best chance of being useful as invasion repellants, in support of defensive battles (though if no combat occurs they most likely won't do anything). |
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Post by JagdFlanker on May 26, 2019 15:56:14 GMT -6
in RtW1 i was experimenting with this so i put 6 coastal batteries on 1 small island to at least resist invasions
later on the UK came in, invaded, and took it from me all in the same turn - kind of funny really since it gave me a definitive answer quickly
from that point i decided there was no point in building them
however invasions are different in RtW2 so they *might* be more useful, but i don't think they are worth building because of their cost - i'd rather 'build a ship beneath the battery' so it can move to where i need it
'pro tip' - when manually building your legacy fleet scrap all your land forts to get the full purchase price back to spend on ships
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Post by dougphresh on May 26, 2019 17:11:06 GMT -6
I'd really like to see fortifications have a strategic impact. Singapore and the Russian fortifications in Finland and the Baltic had a direct effect on shipping.
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Post by brygun on May 26, 2019 17:38:34 GMT -6
I wish they did more in game mechanics vs invasion. My Japanese game lost "Fortress Sardina" in 1 month >_< ~4 of 6 in batteries, 2 x 100 pt airbase, 1-2 Airship bases The UK invasion had landed intact as the IJN navy in the Mediterrean was a bit small. What ships were in the battle missed contact with the invasion ships. One group was CVL based and the other CL with dusk coming so I hid the ships overnight for a dawn air attack, but I guessed the location wrong and the battle timed out before I could get ships in sight. I would like it if the coastal fortifications added some some of land army strength to the areas. I would have liked to think of 4 x 6" guns requiring a battalion. A few hundred in the gunnery and logistics plus a few hundred in the infantry defense ~ 500. Well that might be a bit much at 6" but those are ~150 mm heavy artillery. For reference History Visualized has a youtube showing a land battalion ~500 for 12 howitzers of 150mm/6" range www.youtube.com/watch?v=auceDl-XMmk&t=9s |
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Post by tortugapower on May 26, 2019 21:49:40 GMT -6
My coastal guns off Tanganika as Germany helped sink the invading transports of the British.
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Post by dizzy on May 26, 2019 22:30:09 GMT -6
Do fortifications do anything against invasions in RTW2 or are they strictly a battle asset?
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Post by aeson on May 26, 2019 23:35:35 GMT -6
later on the UK came in, invaded, and took it from me all in the same turn - kind of funny really since it gave me a definitive answer quickly I would hardly call this a 'definitive' answer. Without any hard information on the actual invasion mechanic used in Rule the Waves beyond the requirement for a local naval superiority of 4:1 to trigger an invasion and that winning "battle in support of land combat" engagements helps, the only reliable way to judge the value of coastal batteries for invasion defense would be with statistical analysis over a large data set, and as far as I know none of us have ever attempted to collect invasion statistics of any reasonable quality. I would further note that while it is very obvious when something fails to prevent an invasion, it is essentially impossible for the player to see that something successfully prevented an invasion - there are no "landings repulsed with heavy casualties by coastal artillery" or "invasion force turned back by shore batteries" messages in Rule the Waves, as far as I am aware, and the apparent randomness of invasions precludes any certainty as to whether and where an invasion will occur even with significant local superiority/inferiority so it's very difficult to say "ah ha, coastal batteries are doing something because an unfortified possession should have been invaded by now," all the more so since we lack any decent statistics on invasions.
Maybe coastal batteries are irrelevant; maybe they're not and you just got unlucky. We don't know enough about invasions to say either way.
We don't know. There is no detailed explanation of invasion mechanics that I'm aware of, I don't think that the developers have said anything about this one way or the other, and nobody that I know of has done any remotely-rigorous statistical analysis to see if fortifications influence invasions in either RTW1 or RTW2.
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Post by namuras on May 27, 2019 0:31:32 GMT -6
As far as i understand it coastal batteries are not fixed to a location, rather the region. The more you have, the higher the chance they appear on the map.
They can help against invasions, but only if they are spawned in at the right location and close enough to where the TR stop.
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Post by dizzy on May 27, 2019 0:49:16 GMT -6
As far as i understand it coastal batteries are not fixed to a location, rather the region. The more you have, the higher the chance they appear on the map. They can help against invasions, but only if they are spawned in at the right location and close enough to where the TR stop. What you're saying doesnt make sense to me. On one hand you're saying it's abstract, the more guns the better, and on the other you're saying that it's about TR proximity to the guns which is a battle characteristic, not a strategic element. So which is it, and where are you getting your facts? Out of everyone you seem to know the most about this esoteric game function. |
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Post by namuras on May 27, 2019 1:03:56 GMT -6
As far as i understand it coastal batteries are not fixed to a location, rather the region. The more you have, the higher the chance they appear on the map. They can help against invasions, but only if they are spawned in at the right location and close enough to where the TR stop. What you're saying doesnt make sense to me. On one hand you're saying it's abstract, the more guns the better, and on the other you're saying that it's about TR proximity to the guns which is a battle characteristic, not a strategic element. So which is it, and where are you getting your facts? Out of everyone you seem to know the most about this esoteric game function. Maybe i was unclear. I'll try to clarify what i meant:
You build coastal batteries, but they are not placed on the map once build, but rather spawned in once the battle starts. So their placement can be all over the map. Especially in large regions.
Now if an invasion force comes, they get assigned an area that atleast 4 TRs need to reach. Since TRs stop (atleast in my limited experience with the new invasion battles) well outside of the marked spot, they could very well be outside of gunnery range of any coastal battery - if they are even placed in that one spot.
I do not know if coastal batteris follow normal spotting rules, but to me they seem to have lower vision range than your ships.
Personally i find them too expensive for to little use. They might be usefull in e.g. Hong Kong, Tsing Tao or some of the pacific islands where the placement area is very limited, but i'd rather invest in another cruiser than coastal batteries.
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Post by JagdFlanker on May 27, 2019 1:17:17 GMT -6
later on the UK came in, invaded, and took it from me all in the same turn - kind of funny really since it gave me a definitive answer quickly I would hardly call this a 'definitive' answer. ...Maybe coastal batteries are irrelevant; maybe they're not and you just got unlucky. We don't know enough about invasions to say either way.
this is a definitive answer to me because i don't gamble. i spent all that cash building a defense and it did nothing - even if there was a 0.00000001% of this specific outcome happening that is enough to deter me from ever building coastal batteries again |
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Post by wknehring on May 27, 2019 2:24:49 GMT -6
I think the thing about coastal fortifications is- go all in or build nothing.
In RTW1 they were bad, because of the early firecontrols. Turreted heavy guns, were very expensive. Nevertheless I had some games with A-H I spammed about 20 4" emplacements and about 10 6". The "heavy" backup were some 10". Against coastal raids they can be effective. The problem is, the game placed them in groups at the same 4-5 corners, instead of placing them at the whole coastal line. There were about 15 different guns around Spalato.
For RTW2- the higher the number of fortifications, the higher the chance you have some in the landing area. And against these transports even 4" guns are brutal.
The question is, if MTBs aren´t a bit more effective. They are hard to hit and pack a nasty punch. And they are really really cheap.
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