Pre-Dreadnought Design - Help Please!

[dougphresh]

I'm having a hard time both with the legacy fleet of Pre-Dreadnoughts and building my own. 

While I understand All-Big-Gun armament, I can't get a handle of the mix of calibers, and their mountings on earlier ships. 

For example, the 1898 French battleship Bouvet:




2 × 305 mm/45 Modèle 1893 guns
2 × 274mm/45 Modèle 1893 guns
8 × 138mm/45 Modèle 1893 guns
8 × 100 mm (3.9 in) guns
12 × 47 mm (1.9 in) 3-pounder guns
8 × 37 mm (1.5 in) 1-pounder guns
4 × 450 mm (18 in) torpedo tubes

When I design a ship, should I also be mounting a mix of 10-12, 4-5 and 2 inch guns? 

Should pre-dreadnoughts have casemates, or single or double turrets?

[noshurviverse]

For me, my ideal Predread has a pair of twin guns fore and aft, most likely 12". Secondary guns are 12-16 5" or 6" guns in single turrets or casemates. I choose this caliber because:
•They cannot flash fire and thus do not require heavy armor
•They have no penalty for engaging DDs, unlike 7" guns
•Any DD hit by them is likely rendered combat ineffective
•They posses enough punch to endanger CLs
•RoF penalty for single turrets is accepted if I expect alot of stormy weather

I generally do not utilize tertiary guns until the age of the airplane. The thing with RtW is that everyone has their own personal philosophy when it comes to ship design. Also remember that different nations have different requirements. I know at least one person here holds to the belief that the ability to bring more main battery guns into battle is the most important aspect of Predreads, and thus advocates for the smallest, cheapest design that's capable of hauling 12" guns into battle.

[alias72]

Pre-dreadnoughts used everything from casemates to turrets (single and double). Generally speaking larger caliber secondary guns could be turret mounted as in many french design but casemates were also common. As you can see in the example that ship has a primary secondary, tertiary, quaternary, quinary, and senary armament; you'll note the last three are names in the sequence are so uncommon that most spellcheckers declare them to be errors. General rules are that main armament are in two turrets usually twin but sometime single mounts as above. Secondary can be turret or casemate but larger calibers tend towards turrets; secondary armament is of a medium caliber (10.5" above). Tertiary armament is lighter and in casemates (the 2-5 in guns above).

Per the game you can only have 3 layers of armament so for a ship like above it would be:
Primary 2x1 12"
Secondary 4x1 10" (double the quantity to account for the large number of 5 in guns; could also go with a larger number of 6-8" guns in turrets either side).

Tertiary 14x0 4" (0 being casemate)



Final note. The french treated their pre-dreadnoughts more like art projects than warships. I recommend copying a more sensible nation such as Britain.
 
HMS Canopus
Primary 2x2 305mm (12 in)
Secondary 12 QF 6 in (Casemate)
Tertiary 10 3 in (Casemate)
Quaternary 6 2 in (probably just bolted on somewhere)

The reason you want the medium calibers is that your aim sucks and you will have to close. The 6 or 8 in secondaries can do a fair amount up close and fire faster so get more hits. The smaller calibers will threaten light cruisers and destroyers that look upon you with a rapacious gaze.

[nuclearmoose]

Just to add to what noshuviverse has said don't go crazy with speed, 19 or 20 knots is fast enough. I usually go for casemates for my secondaries just to save a little weight.

[Deleted]

I found crazy pre-dreads somewhat useful. I put 8 secondary guns (8-10 inch) into 4 twin turrets, put some armour on them and profit. The lack of central firing/rangefinder is not that big problem, because with at least 4 secondary guns broadside at close range, the hits are reasonably probable. But I know that most nations would profit more with building two smaller ships without fancy secondaries...

[aeson]

My typical manual-build legacy fleet predreadnought battleship looks something like this:

As to casemated vs turreted secondary/tertiary guns, be aware that if you armor you secondary guns then casemated guns are slightly more tonnage-efficient than individually-turreted guns of the same caliber and also provide some additional protection against hull hits, but suffer more from rough weather than turreted guns do; guns in twin turrets are more tonnage-efficient than either casemated or individually-mounted guns, but early-game light turrets have reliability problems. I would strongly recommend that you use turreted guns if you also use low freeboard, but otherwise I don't have any strong opinions as to whether turreted or casemated guns are better.

I sometimes use 7" secondary guns on legacy predreadnoughts, but as noshurviverse noted it's best to provide them with a lot more armor than you'd really need with 6" secondaries and there's more of a need for a tertiary battery than with a 6" or lighter secondary battery. Somewhat more frequently, I use a 5" secondary battery and drop the tertiary battery entirely.

They have no penalty for engaging DDs, unlike 7" guns

I haven't yet checked in Rule the Waves 2, but in Rule the Waves v1.34b1 6" guns had accuracy penalties against sufficiently small DDs, and while I don't know what the top end of "sufficiently small" was I do know that 600t destroyers were considered to be "sufficiently small."

I would be unsurprised if this remained the case in Rule the Waves 2, though as mentioned I have not yet checked.

Secondary 4x1 10" (double the quantity to account for the large number of 5 in guns; could also go with a larger number of 6-8" guns in turrets either side).

I put 8 secondary guns (8-10 inch) into 4 twin turrets

Legacy ships - which are what dougphresh was asking for help with - cannot use anything heavier than 7" in the secondary battery.

[dorn]

Pre-dreadnoughts design

I will try to go each part of design and try to show different options and reasons why. I am certain I omit some but I hope it enough complexity and still enough explanation to understand.

Before even designing first pre-dreadnought there are questions I should think about.

1. speed of battle line

There are different opinions usually 18-20 knots. The higher speed give you advantage to hunt enemy and escape. In reality it is a little more difficult ships absorb damage during fight and as an effect slow downs.

The main advantage is to choose distance of fight. But usually 1 knot of speed is not enough for that.

18 knots - quite slow but you save tonnage and money but it is sure you have more difficult to play aggresively

19 knots - midle - a lot of people use it as standard pre-dreadnought speed as AI fleets usually have speed of 17-19 knots

20 knots - give speed advantage but for quite a costs

2. how long I would need them

This is most important it helps you to design ship. If you  expect that you scrap them as soon as you have several dreadnoughts, it can be usefull to have a little powerful pre-dreadnoughts but if you think more about use them for long time to help you in distant areas or help you to maintain blockade or repel blockade that chepaer version to save your budget could be interesting. As at time of dreadnoughts they will not probably see much fighting

The options for pre-dreadnoughts

1. Armament

Main point early is that guns have difficult time to penetrate so maximum volume of fire is preferred. To simplified it you can use cubic of each broadside gun caliber to see your potential broadside. Sometimes it is good to know how much you can penetrate as penetrating extended belt is the main source after torpedoes of flooding

1.1 Main guns

- maximum caliber is usally the best thing, except 13" (Q-2) guns where saving tonnage using 12" (Q-1) is usually better

- 2x2 - usually main turrets - but in case you would like to build some cheap design to have double turret forward and single turret aft could be good compromise especially if you mix it with 19-20 knots of speed

- number of shells - it depends on tactics but early it is difficult to sink pre-dreadnoughts so having more shells over 100 is usually good idea

1.2 Secondary guns

- As you need max. firepower, it is preferred maximum gun caliber or 6" guns as they have advantages that there is no risk of flash fire for gun up to caliber 6" for secondary batter

- Turrets vs. casemates - Turrets give advantage that they work same in all weather conditions but have earlier some ROF penalty. Casemates give you advantage of better protection (your have armoured casemates), but are limited in bad weather

1.3 Tertiarry guns

- It depends on your secondary guns, but if you use 6" and higher caliber, they are not so good against destroyers so it can be good to add 3" or 4" guns as tertiaries.
- 3" vs. 4" - 3" weight less weight but are only useful against small destroyers, 4" guns can be used even against little armoured cruisers and have much more punch against earlier destroyers

1.4 Torpedoes

Sides torpedo undewater tubes are quite useful for 2 reasons. First it give you idea of range of your torpedoes by visible circle on map, so you now when your are jeopardize by enemy destroyers and it can help to finish damaged ship which are still difficult to sink by guns only. Forward and aft torpedo tubes are rarely used as it does not give you usually good firing solution and even chance to be usefull is minimal.

2. Armour

2.1 Armour schemes

Basic armour scheme "sloped deck" give you even more protection for vitals due to sloped deck. It is basis scheme. However they are other schemes that could be interesting:

- flat deck on top - as pre-dreadnoughts are quite vulnarable on top (superstructure and fires) this can help as this scheme protects more volume and armour has advantage over penetration earlier so sloped deck may is not needed too much

- narrow armour scheme - this allow saving a lot of tonnage by decreasing volume protected by main belt. This volume which are not protected by main belt is either protected by extended belt or have no protection at all. Still could be quite interesting, especially with combination of same thickness of belt and extended belt armour. Early on there could be extensive flooding of on extended parts of ship and main reason to protect admimship is that there is machinery and magazines. However to decrease flooding on extended parts this scheme could be used (narrow belt with same thickness of belt and extended belt armour).

- combination of flat deck on top and narrow armour scheme - it gives you maximum volume protected by same thick of armour

note: you can try what suits you best as there is no "best" option

2.2 belt and extended belt armour

- try using immunity zone but 8" and over should be enough for earlier years and 9" is completely safe

- for extended belt is more about what type of gun you would like to protect ship. If main armament that I would suggest using narrow armour scheme with same thicknes for belt and extended belt. If for armoured cruisers guns, that something about 2-3" less main belt is enough. Against 6" guns you need a little. But I sugguest at least 2" armour for pre-dreadnought for splinter proteciton

2.3 turret armour

- as there is risk of flash fires which are higher than magazine hit, I would suggest to have turret armour a little higher than belt armour. In case of sloped deck armour scheme think about that your vertical protection is ehanced even more by sloped deck, so good principle could be that turret armour has same thickness as belt and deck armour together or a little less

- for turret top protection I would suggest something more than deck and at least 2" as in game turrets top is considered as angled towards target so their effective armour is less than deck armour

2.4 deck armour

- it is most heavy part of ship for such protection

- they are usually different opinion from 1-2" deck proteciton. What is needed to know that 1" deck protection is enough for plunging fire for all years the pre-dreadnoughts will be your main fighting force. More armour could be usefull as splinter protection as 1" or 1.5" could be not enough to stop spliters. By my experience it is very seldom when splinters go through deck armour even with 1" or 1.5" deck armour

2.5 conning tower

- as battles are fight for short distance I would consider CT about same protection as turret armour

3. Speed

- see above

4. Engine priority

Speed - I would not suggest them as with coal engines are not realiable enough and you can loose speed quite often

Normal - standard
Reliable - Usually not used as expensive on tonnage requirements

5. Range

- short range - could be useful if you do not expect for that ship that it will need to leave home area in war

- medium range - standard

- long range -  I would not used that as it costs a lot of tonnage and give small advantage if your fleet is without base and it is not expected much for pre-dreadnoughts

6. Accomodation

cramped - could be good alternative for short range ships as they are not expected to leave home area

7. Freeboard

Low - Save quite a tonnage  but your ship is operating in bad very limited way. Could be useful for some cheap pre-dreadnoughts that patrol in home waters

EDIT:

note: it is based on RTW1 knowledge however I do not expect difference in RTW2

[dougphresh]

Some really amazing posts here. I appreciate the help.

What a strange time in ship design.