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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 17:28:35 GMT -6
I'm trying to build a legacy fleet for a new Japan campaign and I'm not sure about a few things in regards to armour from real ships used by Japan at that time.
For example I'm trying to design the Asama and Izumo class ships. What I don't know is what Belt armour and scheme I should use on these ships (or ships in general). I do assume that the mid section of the Belt armour should be roughly in between the max and minimum from the real numbers. So both of these ships had 7-3.5 inches of belt armour. That would then translate to in game of a Belt armour of 5.5?
I also find it hard to know and find when ships used Flat/Sloped deck armour or a narrow belt armour. Perhaps someone could tell me roughly when these were used and some example ships that used either or a combination?
I also wonder how how the armour quality interact with the penetration values we see in the game for guns. Are the value showed based on optimal quality armour or how does this work. When you get better AP technology these values shift, does it also take your armour quality into account in what it shows, problem is I don't know the quality of the armour or how that interact with newer guns and ammunition?
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Post by mycophobia on May 27, 2019 17:38:05 GMT -6
The "Belt Armour" ingame refers to the thickest portion of the belt. Belt-Edge Refers to the thinner parts. So your design should have 7in belt with 3.5in belt edge. (Note this is not two hard values, but rather the hardest/thinnest point I believe, which some degree of transition in actual combat when you are hit.) Sloped deck is applicable to most early warship until AON became a thing, when you doubt you can always try to find an armour diagram of said ship.
Flatdeck is also used to represent later AON warships, for those ships, set the belt edge/deck edge to 0(In reality these AON ships may still have very thin plating at the edge of the ship, but for game purpose just put 0).
Narrow belt is a weird one, I think if you find any ship whose main belt is noticeably short/only covers vital(Although for this magazine box is more suitable)/narrow in the sense that it doesn't extend much above/below water line, it will be suitable.
The value you see in Armour penetration table is always based on YOUR armour quality vs YOUR Gun AP quality. So expect difference in practice since AI may have different tech level. Ammo quality improve with tech, Armour quality I think is determined by the tech when your ship was first constructed.(Which may be upgradable with refit, but I don't think they do)
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Post by noshurviverse on May 27, 2019 17:40:17 GMT -6
Per the manual: Belt armor in inches. Note. The program assumes that the belt is thickest in the center of the ship and at the magazines, and thinner at the ends. So use the thickest value for recreating historical designs, I'd think.
As far as I know, sloped deck armor schemes were the standard for most designs.
Again, as far as I know, the penetration values you see are for your guns now, against your armor now. So theoretically it might be possible to see your penetration value decline slightly if you researched a level of armor advancement.
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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 18:24:06 GMT -6
I take that explanation as that Belt arrmour represent the average of the mid section total belt armour protection... the problem is that these two ships can't be even close to built with a 7" armoured belt it is way to heavy for the machinery, even with 20 knots and engine turned to Speed focus. I can't really se the ship using cramped accomodation weither since I can't find any info mentioning this. This is my current try of the Asama and the Izume class ships... any thought for improvements given what I have to work with in the game?   I have four torpedo tubes from the five the ships have... it also have about 500t more displacement from hostorical and I still can't get even close to 7" belt armour. The ship was slightly overweight in reality so it should be that in game too. What are the drawbacks of an overweight ship in the game, mechanical wise? |
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Post by aeson on May 27, 2019 18:54:21 GMT -6
It has fewer flotation points (i.e. is less resistant to flooding) and the class is more likely to gain a negative attribute (over design weight for a further flotation penalty, failed to make design speed on trials for -1 knot service speed, maybe some others that I'm not remembering at present) when you commission it. |
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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 19:01:34 GMT -6
Here is another try... might be that armour just is too heavy in the game to meet these requirements on early ships?!?  Any ideas on how armour can be inline with real ships? |
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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 19:03:05 GMT -6
It has fewer flotation points (i.e. is less resistant to flooding) and the class is more likely to gain a negative attribute (over design weight for a further flotation penalty, failed to make design speed on trials for -1 knot service speed, maybe some others that I'm not remembering at present) when you commission it. Thanks.. good to know! |
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Post by mycophobia on May 27, 2019 19:18:15 GMT -6
I take that explanation as that Belt arrmour represent the average of the mid section total belt armour protection... the problem is that these two ships can't be even close to built with a 7" armoured belt it is way to heavy for the machinery, even with 20 knots and engine turned to Speed focus. I can't really se the ship using cramped accomodation weither since I can't find any info mentioning this. This is my current try of the Asama and the Izume class ships... any thought for improvements given what I have to work with in the game? I have four torpedo tubes from the five the ships have... it also have about 500t more displacement from hostorical and I still can't get even close to 7" belt armour. The ship was slightly overweight in reality so it should be that in game too. What are the drawbacks of an overweight ship in the game, mechanical wise? One thing worth noting is according to wiki seems to only carry 65 shell per turret, that translate to about 32 shells a gun, which is oddly little but can help you cut a lot of weight, then you can leave your ship slightly overweight and probably get them to work. Edit: also consider cutting deck edge, while the wiki says they have 2.5in deck Armor, I highly doubt that will be uniform, maybe leaving deck edge at 0 will help. Lastly, maybe consider order the ship 1-2 year into the game, I could be wrong but I believe besides gun availability and dock size most nation are assumed to be at the same tech level at start of the game? So you may need slight bit of tech before you can build certain irl ships |
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Post by aeson on May 27, 2019 19:21:01 GMT -6
This is my current try of the Asama and the Izume class ships... any thought for improvements given what I have to work with in the game? Try Low Freeboard and Narrow belt, use the minimum (2") rather than the ~average (4") armor on the casemated 6" guns, and cut the DE armor completely. If you want the extra half inch of D armor or the ~500 tons less displacement on Izumo, also use at least one of Short Range and Cramped Accommodations. You'd get something like these: Not perfect, of course, but probably close enough.
As a note, I believe a design becomes "seriously overweight" (illegal) at 3% over design displacement; "considerably overweight" is between 2% and 3% over design displacement, "overweight" is between 1% and 2% over design displacement, and "slightly overweight" is under 1% over design displacement.
More or less, yes, though the Poor Education and Undeveloped Shipbuilding Industry attributes increase the chances of getting negative design traits for ships built in that nation's shipyards, which could be interpreted as having a worse technology base than other powers even though the "expected result" - what you see when you create the design - is the same regardless of where you order the ship at game start. There's also a trait - Technical Excellence or Attention to Detail, depending on whether you take the name in the manual or in the nation file - which according to the manual increases the chances of positive traits for ships built in the nation's shipyards, though it doesn't show up in the nation overview when picking nations or in the Almanac.
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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 19:44:40 GMT -6
One thing worth noting is according to wiki seems to only carry 65 shell per turret, that translate to about 32 shells a gun, which is oddly little but can help you cut a lot of weight, then you can leave your ship slightly overweight and probably get them to work. Edit: also consider cutting deck edge, while the wiki says they have 2.5in deck Armor, I highly doubt that will be uniform, maybe leaving deck edge at 0 will help. Lastly, maybe consider order the ship 1-2 year into the game, I could be wrong but I believe besides gun availability and dock size most nation are assumed to be at the same tech level at start of the game? So you may need slight bit of tech before you can build certain irl ships Regarding the Ammo they stored about 64 rounds in the turret but had 120 rounds per gun total on the ship. Yes.. I went with reducing the deck armour for one thing to save some space... |
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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 19:49:38 GMT -6
Try Low Freeboard and Narrow belt, use the minimum (2") rather than the ~average (4") armor on the casemated 6" guns, and cut the DE armor completely. If you want the extra half inch of D armor or the ~500 tons less displacement on Izumo, also use at least one of Short Range and Cramped Accommodations. You'd get something like these: Not perfect, of course, but probably close enough. As a note, I believe a design becomes "seriously overweight" (illegal) at 3% over design displacement; "considerably overweight" is between 2% and 3% over design displacement, "overweight" is between 1% and 2% over design displacement, and "slightly overweight" is under 1% over design displacement.
More or less, yes, though the Poor Education and Undeveloped Shipbuilding Industry attributes increase the chances of getting negative design traits for ships built in that nation's shipyards, which could be interpreted as having a worse technology base than other powers even though the "expected result" - what you see when you create the design - is the same regardless of where you order the ship at game start. There's also a trait - Technical Excellence or Attention to Detail, depending on whether you take the name in the manual or in the nation file - which according to the manual increases the chances of positive traits for ships built in the nation's shipyards, though it doesn't show up in the nation overview when picking nations or in the Almanac.
Some good tips... Well as Japan all big ships basically come from British shipyards and there are no problem continue to do this for a considreable time in the game either and they usually have much better tech than Japan overall anyway so it make sense... I presume you side step the bad traits that way? |
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Post by mycophobia on May 27, 2019 19:59:19 GMT -6
Try Low Freeboard and Narrow belt, use the minimum (2") rather than the ~average (4") armor on the casemated 6" guns, and cut the DE armor completely. If you want the extra half inch of D armor or the ~500 tons less displacement on Izumo, also use at least one of Short Range and Cramped Accommodations. You'd get something like these: Not perfect, of course, but probably close enough. As a note, I believe a design becomes "seriously overweight" (illegal) at 3% over design displacement; "considerably overweight" is between 2% and 3% over design displacement, "overweight" is between 1% and 2% over design displacement, and "slightly overweight" is under 1% over design displacement.
More or less, yes, though the Poor Education and Undeveloped Shipbuilding Industry attributes increase the chances of getting negative design traits for ships built in that nation's shipyards, which could be interpreted as having a worse technology base than other powers even though the "expected result" - what you see when you create the design - is the same regardless of where you order the ship at game start. There's also a trait - Technical Excellence or Attention to Detail, depending on whether you take the name in the manual or in the nation file - which according to the manual increases the chances of positive traits for ships built in the nation's shipyards, though it doesn't show up in the nation overview when picking nations or in the Almanac.
Some good tips... Well as Japan all big ships basically come from British shipyards and there are no problem continue to do this for a considreable time in the game either and they usually have much better tech than Japan overall anyway so it make sense... I presume you side step the bad traits that way? You Also catch the british habit of blowing up this way. Japan also lose their poor ship building trait after you expand ur docks/build enough ships (I forgot which triggers it, I think dock size). So in the long run it’s worth investing in domestic building Also bear in mind when creating historical lay out ships that due to somewhat varied tech, it may not always be possible to create ship identical to historical layout, though generally most ships between 1910s-30s can be done quite accurately in their time frame, any earlier/later may be a little iffy. |
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Post by aeson on May 27, 2019 20:05:19 GMT -6
Well as Japan all big ships basically come from British shipyards and there are no problem continue to do this for a considreable time in the game either and they usually have much better tech than Japan overall anyway so it make sense... I presume you side step the bad traits that way? I almost always build domestically if I can create a design that looks decent for the type of ship that and the time period when I'm building it. Negative design traits are more what I'd consider mildly annoying than serious impediments, and my impression is that the national characteristic Undeveloped Shipbuilding Industry goes away more quickly if you build more ships domestically (I don't have proof of that, mind, but it's the impression I have).
Also, the national traits that modify construction time - Poor Education (+10% construction time), Undeveloped Shipbuilding Industry (+10% construction time), and Efficient Shipbuilding Industry (-10% construction time) - don't affect the total cost of a ship, which is arguably useful for budget planning since it means that building the ship somewhere with a longer construction time reduces monthly construction costs.
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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 20:14:51 GMT -6
Yes... I have done some consessions to make these ships but I found two version I'm satisfied with no at least.   I even got in the fifth extra torpedo slot and uped the guns to 120 shots...  I reduce the deck armour, this can be added later on as well if I want to. I also think that having ships overweight is realistic because many ships were that in real life, these two were a bit overweight in real life anyway. I think we just have a problem with this in game because we don't like red numbers and the potential problem that can follow... it can be a risk reward thing though. |
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Post by jorgencab on May 27, 2019 20:17:47 GMT -6
Well as Japan all big ships basically come from British shipyards and there are no problem continue to do this for a considreable time in the game either and they usually have much better tech than Japan overall anyway so it make sense... I presume you side step the bad traits that way? I almost always build domestically if I can create a design that looks decent for the type of ship that and the time period when I'm building it. Negative design traits are more what I'd consider mildly annoying than serious impediments, and my impression is that the national characteristic Undeveloped Shipbuilding Industry goes away more quickly if you build more ships domestically (I don't have proof of that, mind, but it's the impression I have).
Also, the national traits that modify construction time - Poor Education (+10% construction time), Undeveloped Shipbuilding Industry (+10% construction time), and Efficient Shipbuilding Industry (-10% construction time) - don't affect the total cost of a ship, which is arguably useful for budget planning since it means that building the ship somewhere with a longer construction time reduces monthly construction costs.
In the games I have had so far I do both... I expand the local capability but I always shop around when building a ship and see of I can get something better someplace else. That is also a bit realistic from an role play perspective. Can't you also get some technology from building in other countries yards when a ship finish? |
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