Deutschland Class in 1920 in 1.03

[exgavalonnj]

When I go to build my 11,000 design with six 11" guns I am still restricted by the treaty to only 8" guns. Wasn't this just supposed to be fixed in the patch?

[kongoudess]

Are you playing as Germany? Because if not, you'd be bound by the 8" treaty.
This is only if you are not bound by that treaty.

[entropyavatar]

In 1.03, playing as Germany I tried to build a CA with 11" guns around 1908 but it still wanted to classify it as a B. Does the 11" allowance only apply in a later period?

[zardoz]

IN RTW 1 you could build CAs with single 11 inch guns. Ships with at least double turrets with 11 inch guns were classified BCs and possible when and if BCs were researched. I do not know whether you can combine 10 kt ships with this weapons or if that is deemed overgunned.

RTW has problems to rebuild historic ships. For example, the historic "Brandenburg"-class of the Imperial German navy, build in 1890-1894 had actually 3 double turrets with a midship turret which had short barreled guns. Since the "Deutschland"-class was also very special it is quite probable that we cannot build that.

To be honest, I do not think that this is a pitty. The "Deutschland"-class is famous but if you look on the achievements you can see that the ships are massively overrated. Even the "Graf Spee" was sunk on the first and only run. The time of the big ships was already over and even well armed ships like the Bismarck could be knocked out or dramatically damaged by a single lucky shot. This is on the other side good represented by RTW even it is sometimes painfull for the player.

[dizzy]

Jun 6, 2019 8:07:51 GMT -6 zardoz said:

IN RTW 1 you could build CAs with single 11 inch guns. Ships with at least double turrets with 11 inch guns were classified BCs and possible when and if BCs were researched. I do not know whether you can combine 10 kt ships with this weapons or if that is deemed overgunned.

RTW has problems to rebuild historic ships. For example, the historic "Brandenburg"-class of the Imperila German navy, build in 1890-1894 had actually 3 double turrets with a midshuip turrets which had short barreled guns. Since the "Deutshcland"-class was also very special it is quite probable that we cannot build that.

To be honest, I do not think that this is a pitty. The "Deutschland"-class is famous but if you look on the achievements you can see that the ships are massively overrated. Even the "Graf Spee" was sunk on the first and only run. The time of the big ships was already over and even well armed ships like the Bismarck could be knocked out or dramatically damaged by a single lucky shot. This is on the other side good represented by RTW even it is sometimes painfull for the player.

Even so, we still want to be able to build it. 

[bcoopactual]

Jun 6, 2019 7:29:01 GMT -6 entropyavatar said:

In 1.03, playing as Germany I tried to build a CA with 11" guns around 1908 but it still wanted to classify it as a B. Does the 11" allowance only apply in a later period?

The patch note for the Deutschlands didn't state if it applied at a specific year or not.  It's quite possible that it changes based on the game year.  11 inch guns would have been considered capital ship armament in the 1908 time frame.   

Having done a little testing, I designed this in a 1920 start game (v. 1.03) with the Versaille and Washington treaties in effect and it considered it legal for a CA.  It's pretty close to the historic panzerschiffe with the exception of diesel engines for ships which Germany doesn't have researched yet in-game (Jan 1920). 


 

[dizzy]

So you can build it?

[dorn]

Jun 6, 2019 9:15:04 GMT -6 dizzy said:

So you can build it?

You cannot in 1921. Probably a bug.

[warlock]

I haven't had any issue with building big gun CAs in any of my games yet at least with a 1900. In fact I always build at least one class of what I term a pre-battlecruiser when I do my legacy build of fleet designing a CA at 22 knots, with 6 inch belts and 4 large caliber guns. I know I have built these with 11-inch guns and if I am not mistaken, 12-inch guns on one occasion. They tend to be as big as by Battleships too as far as tonnage goes and I use them just like I use Battlecruisers in the later game.

What I find odd though is that while I can do 11 and 12 inch guns on CAs immediately on a 1900 start, at some point, the game restricts me to a maximum of 10-inch guns on cruisers, which prevents me from building late game "Super Cruisers" like the Alaska or B65 design drawn up by Japan which in essence is that same type of CA I created back in 1900 with my legacy build.

As far as the 1920 start, maybe this is at or just after the point the game starts restricting me from mounting larger than 10-inch guns on CAs which would explain why you can't do it in a 1920 start.

[bcoopactual]

LOL, I had to modify my available funds in the game save file just to develop the design.  Germany with the Versaille treaty in place is in a hole.


Anyway, no, I couldn't build it in 1920 with the Washington treaty in effect. 

I made a new game with Versaille but without Washington using the same ship file copied over and I had no problem building them (again, that required cheating to have enough funds to do it that early in the game for Germany but yes I started construction on two of them.)




    

[dizzy]

So it's bugged?

[bcoopactual]

Jun 6, 2019 9:46:37 GMT -6 dizzy said:

So it's bugged?

The main treaty mechanism in-game (which the Washington Treaty start option seems to use) applies to all nations in the game so unless the developers tried to exempt Germany from the treaty system if the Versaille treaty was in effect, and it's still happening anyway then no, it's not a bug. 


Historically, Germany wasn't limited by the Washington treaty since Versaille was considered much more restrictive and they weren't invited.  But since the ships weren't approved for construction until late 1928, the Washington treaty was about to expire around the time they were completed anyway so that might be why it wasn't looked at during development.  As well, keep in mind I had to cheat with the funds to be able to build them that early. 


Still, I guess it's something that Fredrik could look at if he gets a chance to see if the code can be modified to allow Versaille to exempt Washington so they can built at least a few years prior to the historical record if the player wants to invest that early.    

[dizzy]

exgavalonnj The OP should report this in the Bug Report Section.

[zardoz]

The "Deutschland"-class was ordered in 1928 and built in the earlie 3oies. I do not understand the remark concering 1920?!

[bcoopactual]

Jun 6, 2019 10:46:34 GMT -6 zardoz said:

The "Deutschland"-class was ordered in 1928 and built in the earlie 3oies. I do not understand the remark concering 1920?!

If you are referring to me, I just created a test game with a 1920 start to see if the six 11 inch gunned, 10,000 ton ship would be designated a CA or a B in 1920.  


The initial designs for the Deutschland-class were begun in 1926 and were ready in 1927-28.  It was politics that delayed the approval of the first unit to late 1928 and the keel laying to 1929.  It wouldn't be unrealistic then for a player to want to build then a few years earlier than was the case historically.  However the current treaty mechanism doesn't seem to allow Germany specifically to violate the Washington Treaty limits even though it didn't historically apply to them.

[Edit - Fredrik is trying to fix this based on a bug report from May 30.  It was supposed to be fixed in 1.03 but apparently is still there and that feedback has already been added to that thread.]