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Post by zardoz on Jun 14, 2019 2:27:45 GMT -6
Is is correct that Germany has no 10 inch guns at the beginning of the 1900 game?
I assume that the 24 cm guns of the Kaiser Friedrich III.-class and the Wittelsbach-class were "roundend down" to 9 inch? But why has this be changed in comparison to RTW 1?
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HaLe
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by HaLe on Jun 14, 2019 7:19:04 GMT -6
Is is correct that Germany has no 10 inch guns at the beginning of the 1900 game?
I assume that the 24 cm guns of the Kaiser Friedrich III.-class and the Wittelsbach-class were "roundend down" to 9 inch? But why has this be changed in comparison to RTW 1?
Rtw2 is in general a lot less generous with the guns you have at the beginning of the game - GB e.g. has 6" Q-1 at the Start of the game, while in Rtw2 you had basically everything you would need at Q0 except for the high-calibre-guns. I assume this was mainly done to force the player to adapt his design choices to the nation he is playing, instead of developing one standard type and spamming it all the time. |
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Post by yemo on Jun 14, 2019 8:27:06 GMT -6
It seriously gimps the germans from developing higher caliber guns with the current mechanics.
I therefore mod this in my own games, so that germany is not so extremely retarded with gun calibers.
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Post by stevethecat on Jun 14, 2019 8:50:58 GMT -6
It seriously gimps the germans from developing higher caliber guns with the current mechanics. I therefore mod this in my own games, so that germany is not so extremely retarded with gun calibers. To be fair Germany is easy mode as is anyway. The nation has great starting bonuses and easily manageable foreign stations, it really doesn't need to be anymore OP. |
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Post by yemo on Jun 14, 2019 8:58:48 GMT -6
It seriously gimps the germans from developing higher caliber guns with the current mechanics. I therefore mod this in my own games, so that germany is not so extremely retarded with gun calibers. To be fair Germany is easy mode as is anyway. The nation has great starting bonuses and easily manageable foreign stations, it really doesn't need to be anymore OP. I had a test game where I would not have 14 inch guns in the early 1920s as germany, with naval gun research set to high. In the French sucession AAR, it is 1921 and Germany does not have a single ship afloat with larger than 13 inch guns, while France has 15/Q0 guns in service and 17/Q0 guns available.
The problem is not the German starting situation, the problem is how the gun research mechanic works and thus reacts to that starting situation.
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 14, 2019 13:00:11 GMT -6
To be fair Germany is easy mode as is anyway. The nation has great starting bonuses and easily manageable foreign stations, it really doesn't need to be anymore OP. I had a test game where I would not have 14 inch guns in the early 1920s as germany, with naval gun research set to high. In the French sucession AAR, it is 1921 and Germany does not have a single ship afloat with larger than 13 inch guns, while France has 15/Q0 guns in service and 17/Q0 guns available.
The problem is not the German starting situation, the problem is how the gun research mechanic works and thus reacts to that starting situation.
Did you set gun technology to high and everything else to low? If you find this a problem then you can always do this until you get to a decent level of technology in that area. As Japan for example I basically set everything to low except machinery, DD and torpedo development and later heavier than air. I also have submarines at medium. I build all my ships bigger than 5000t in Brittish holdings (sometimes in the US) until about the early 30th when I start building CV and CVL in my own yards. This way I also get mostly free upgrades to my naval yards so i don't have to spend any resources to expand my yards either. In any way, I don't think this should be much of a problem. As Germany you can actually build your battleships in other countries yards until you have decent technology to do it in your own. |
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Post by yemo on Jun 14, 2019 13:20:14 GMT -6
I had a test game where I would not have 14 inch guns in the early 1920s as germany, with naval gun research set to high. In the French sucession AAR, it is 1921 and Germany does not have a single ship afloat with larger than 13 inch guns, while France has 15/Q0 guns in service and 17/Q0 guns available.
The problem is not the German starting situation, the problem is how the gun research mechanic works and thus reacts to that starting situation.
Did you set gun technology to high and everything else to low? If you find this a problem then you can always do this until you get to a decent level of technology in that area. As Japan for example I basically set everything to low except machinery, DD and torpedo development and later heavier than air. I also have submarines at medium. I build all my ships bigger than 5000t in Brittish holdings (sometimes in the US) until about the early 30th when I start building CV and CVL in my own yards. This way I also get mostly free upgrades to my naval yards so i don't have to spend any resources to expand my yards either. In any way, I don't think this should be much of a problem. As Germany you can actually build your battleships in other countries yards until you have decent technology to do it in your own. The problem is not just when I m playing as Germany. It is mainly when playing against Germany and their paltry 13inch guns in the 1920s. Their 39kton, 13inch armed battleships/battlecruisers are individually just not a credible threat against 16/17inchers. Which ruins the immersion.
edit: I would be fine if this happens in a varied tech game. But it is frequently happening in normal games, where I consider it to be a design bug.
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Post by deeznuts on Jun 14, 2019 13:33:03 GMT -6
It’s realistic, Germany IRL tended to be behind on calibres compared to the other great powers, focusing instead of achieving higher velocity for their guns believing this would make up the difference in penetration ability.
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Post by yemo on Jun 14, 2019 13:46:35 GMT -6
It’s realistic, Germany IRL tended to be behind on calibres compared to the other great powers, focusing instead of achieving higher velocity for their guns believing this would make up the difference in penetration ability. Sorry, but without a war, Germany would not be 4 inches behind the french in gun caliber in the 1920s. |
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 14, 2019 15:37:59 GMT -6
Although... historically Germany have always favoured slightly lower calibre on their naval ships. They believed that higher and more accurate fire was more important. They also experimented with higher muzzle velocities as well if I'm not mistaken making their guns quite good despite being slightly smaller.
As far as I know they always fared quite well against the British on an individual basis.
So it is not completely unhistorical.. I also have experienced that higher rates of fire and good quality guns usually trumps larger qualities. When you say the Germans are a push over is this when you play on Admiral difficulty as well. Sure AI being AI can always be gamed in the sense you learn how it reacts and works. But when playing on Admiral difficulty I usually find the AI quite capable, especially in large engagements.
I have not really experienced the Germans lagging behind by 4 inches in gun calibre for very long. In all of my games they tend to catch on pretty fast.
I'm not sure how the game technology works but other countries should get bonus research when other countries developed some new type of equipment, especially if they are used in any types of war. Not sure how the game handles this?!?
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 14, 2019 16:08:27 GMT -6
Not sure if "being behind" is as serious an issue as people thinks. Gun progression is not strictly linear, and having a possibility to get 11/12in while other maybe working towards 13/14 in is at most a minor set back considering you could potentially jumpy straight to 15/16in. I've had a 12 -15in jump as Russia IIRC.
Also could swear that Germany begin with either 10 or 11in gun? Unless this was changed from rtw1
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Post by jorgencab on Jun 14, 2019 16:24:54 GMT -6
Not sure if "being behind" is as serious an issue as people thinks. Gun progression is not strictly linear, and having a possibility to get 11/12in while other maybe working towards 13/14 in is at most a minor set back considering you could potentially jumpy straight to 15/16in. I've had a 12 -15in jump as Russia IIRC. Also could swear that Germany begin with either 10 or 11in gun? Unless this was changed from rtw1 Yes... they start at 11" In all of my games it is basically the British that generally are one or two inches before everyone else. Germany are there contending with the biggest guns with all the rest of the countries. I think this is same strange confirmation bias going on or something... or all of my games seem to be abnormal for some reasons. I have not been playing the game for long but I have restarted ALLOT of campaigns to learn the game properly. What I have learned is that calibre is far from the most important thing. If a gun can penetrate the most widely used armour schemes at a distance where you are likely to have a decent chance to hit something then rate of fire are way more important. Since smaller calibre means less weight and more importantly less weight for you ammunition its clear thing are not really so straight forward as bigger is always better. There is a time for big powerful guns, but only when the rest of the technology allow them to make them superior. The quality of guns is also important. A high quality gun can easily be as good as one or two classes above them of lower calibre for the reason given above. Less weight and higher rate of fire. If your 16" gun can penetrate regular battleship armour at 25000 yards and a 14" at 20000 yards it does not matter much if neither can hit until you are at 10-15000 yards unless you are really lucky. Fire at more than 20000 yard might just be wasting ammunition at that point. |
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Post by mycophobia on Jun 14, 2019 16:28:14 GMT -6
Not sure if "being behind" is as serious an issue as people thinks. Gun progression is not strictly linear, and having a possibility to get 11/12in while other maybe working towards 13/14 in is at most a minor set back considering you could potentially jumpy straight to 15/16in. I've had a 12 -15in jump as Russia IIRC. Also could swear that Germany begin with either 10 or 11in gun? Unless this was changed from rtw1 Yes... they start at 11" In all of my games it is basically the British that generally are one or two inches before everyone else. Germany are there contending with the biggest guns with all the rest of the countries. I think this is same strange confirmation bias going on or something... or all of my games seem to be abnormal for some reasons. I have not been playing the game for long but I have restarted ALLOT of campaigns to learn the game properly. What I have learned is that calibre is far from the most important thing. If a gun can penetrate the most widely used armour schemes at a distance where you are likely to have a decent chance to hit something then rate of fire are way more important. Since smaller calibre means less weight and more importantly less weight for you ammunition thing are NEVER this straightforward. There is a time for big powerful guns, but only when the rest of the technology allow them to make them superior. The quality of guns is also important. A high quality gun can easily be as good as one or two classes above them of lower calibre for the reason given above. Less weight and higher rate of fire. If your 16" gun can penetrate regular battleship armour at 25000 yards and a 14" at 20000 yards it does not matter much if neither can hit until you are at 10-15000 yards unless you are really lucky. Fire at more than 20000 yard might just be wasting ammunition at that point. Definitely agree, unless playing as one of the really rich super powers(which I rarely do, infact I never played UK and US once in over 30+ games of RTW1/2), it is usually a good idea to consider what is "good enough" then building the absolute best. Smaller guns can work very well, and arguably in some case better than large guns, as long as you know what you are up against and know what you do with them. 11-12in tends to be rather inadequate eventually, but I find 13/14in gun have a place for the most part of the game imo. |
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Post by lukasdietrich on Jun 14, 2019 16:32:14 GMT -6
Quality of guns and firing directors matters more than gun caliber. Even late in the game I use 11", 12" or 14" guns if they are of high quality since the ROF is better and the quality makes them more accurate.
A shell that does not hit does not damage your target. If you can saturate your target in 11" or 12" gun hits then I would sometimes rather have that over 15" or 16" guns that cannot hit and only get a few salvos before I can fire 1.5x that number.
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