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Post by heimdall on May 23, 2015 10:49:14 GMT -6
I am a newbie.
I order the SAI at the day before yesterday, and i am study the Player's Manual now.
Now, i was confused about the formation "Line ahead" and the formation "Line abreast".
The Question is: Step 1: I Load a new scenario, i set a division's formation to "Line ahead", Off the "Turn together", then, let them run 10 mins. And I found the division's ships is run in Line ahead. It's OK. Step 2: I Load a new same scenario, i set a division's formation to "Line abreast", Off the "Turn together", then, let them run 10 mins. And I found the division's ships is run in Line ahead, not in abreast. It was same with the "Line ahead" !
I can't find any difference between the "Line ahead" and the "Line abreast".
Then, i check the Player's Manual, the Manual said ["Search line" is like "line abreast" but with much larger intervals between ships.] Well, i think i need test the "Search line".
And I found the ships was spread out immediately after set this division's formation to "Search line".
So, i was confused. What am I doing wrong?
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Post by julianbarker on May 23, 2015 11:02:27 GMT -6
I think there is a bug in line abreast. I have had problems getting formations to correctly hold line abreast when ordered to. Not sure if this has been logged as something that needs to be fixed.
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Post by Fredrik W on May 23, 2015 11:13:08 GMT -6
Check turn together and they will maneuver in line abreast.
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Post by heimdall on May 23, 2015 11:31:55 GMT -6
Check turn together and they will maneuver in line abreast. First, thank you for your reply. Now, I Load a new scenario. Division A is run to East (Course 90) in line ahead. I check the turn together, set the formation to "Line abreast" ,and run 5 mins, they are in "line ahead". No any changes. Then, I let them turn to North (Course 0), and run 5 mins. Now they are in "line abreast". It looks like it works. Well, I let them turn to East (Course 90) again, and run 5 mins. they are in "line ahead" again. BTW, if i check the turn together, and set the formation to line ahead, it will works same with above. So, I think this is just turn together works, not the "Line abreast".
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Post by heimdall on May 23, 2015 11:52:01 GMT -6
Ok, i have a new discovery.
When I check the turn together,and set the formation to line ahead, press ok. then i open the dialog again. I find the formation is line abreast, not the line ahead.I never changed it, But it was changed automatically.
Well, Now I off the turn together, press ok. then i open the dialog again. I find the formation is line ahead, not the line abreast.I never changed it, But it was changed automatically.
So, I think may be the line abreast is just turn together's pronoun.
But, if i just change the formation to line abrest, and off the turn together. It works exactly like Line ahead.
turn together can change the formation automatically, But formation can not switch the turn together automatically.
"Line ahead" and "Line breast", What's their difference?
"formation" and "turn together", What's their relation?
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Post by Fredrik W on May 23, 2015 12:06:20 GMT -6
Yes, checking turn together will put them in line abreast, unchecking it will put them in line ahead. That was maybe not the most intuitive user interface known to man, but that's how it works.
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Post by heimdall on May 23, 2015 12:12:30 GMT -6
Yes, checking turn together will put them in line abreast, unchecking it will put them in line ahead. That was maybe not the most intuitive user interface known to man, but that's how it works. Okay. Thank you for your support. I have understood your answer. thank you very much. My suggest: Delete the formation "Line abreast" Keep the switch "Turn together" if player change the formation to "Search line" or "Screen", the switch "Turn together" should be grey. if player change the formation to "line ahead" ,and check the "Turn together" , the formation should be always "line ahead", can not let player change the formation unless player off the "Turn together". This will let us more clarity.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 12:43:28 GMT -6
Interesting... Recall indeed that line abreast doesn't often stick, now I know why!
Usually i just check turn together to avoid torps (which is quite useful) so didn't use it that often.
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Post by julianbarker on May 24, 2015 8:23:10 GMT -6
I can't get my head round this. I have a subordinate formation in sight and order them to line abreast using the formation dialogue. Nothing happens. Next turn they will be in line ahead. So how do I get a formation to stay on the same course but abreast of one another? I realise I can turn on turn together, and manoeuvre them into line abreast manually, but always assumed the formation drop down would do this for me as otherwise why us it there? It is quite complicated getting a proper line abreast instead of a line on bearing, especially as going from line ahead to line abreast should not need as many right angle turns if ships are not all going Max speed.
To give an example of when I have wanted to do this, I have a force that is pursuing a fleeing enemy. I am in line ahead. I catch up with the slower enemy ships. To maximise my ahead firepower I want yo be in line abreast to try and finish the pursuit before dark and open up the guns of the rear ships who have the smoke of the line getting in the way. I can slow a knot or two and let them get into line abreast whilst still hitting the enemy due to my speed advantage.
If I use the turn together option I need to do two right angle turns which involved turning away from the enemy so isn't what I want to do.
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Post by randomizer on May 24, 2015 9:39:09 GMT -6
In reality, ships had essentially two methods of maneuvering in formation, turning in succession or turning together. To get the formation that you describe would take a 90 degree turn in succession followed by a 90 degree turn together to place the formation back onto base course in line ahead. There was no other way to do it safely and the subsequent loss of speed and position that you notice is exactly why no such maneuvers were doctrinal in any steam age navy. Capital ships were not very maneuverable and took considerable time to respond to helm orders and to accelerate or decelerate so remaining in formation was essential to prevent collisions. By the 1890's line abreast in battle had fallen out of utility, the Qing fleet at Yellow Sea in 1894 sailing in line abreast had been routed trying to fight the Japanese, who operated in line ahead and the reasons are not difficult to see.
SAI models line ahead as the main fighting formation because the alternative is ineffective and cumbersome in virtually all tactical situations. It was the easiest and safest formation for maneuver and it minimized station keeping problems for subordinates.
The formation that you want above is called forming on a line of bearing, where you select Turn Together and then alter course 10-15 degrees to expose the forward batteries of your line. American references will sometimes refer to this as sailing in echelon as each ship sits on the after quarter of its next ahead. The problem with sailing on a line of bearing is that it is necessary to turn back onto the base course to restore the line as any turn in succession from a line of bearing formation would result in chaos. SAI demonstrates all of this with reasonable accuracy and does not allow maneuvers that were totally impractical and never even considered for the real world of the day.
Also you should always keep one-knot stationing reserve so that formation speed is that of the slowest ship minus one-knot. Not retaining this small speed reserve will probably result in your formation becoming increasingly disordered as ships cannot return to station and start to fall behind the guide.
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Post by Fredrik W on May 24, 2015 12:05:28 GMT -6
Actually, Heimdall has a good point, the line abreast formation choice is redundant, it is handled by checking "turn together".
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 12:54:57 GMT -6
Randomizer is back! To maximise my ahead firepower I want yo be in line abreast to try and finish the pursuit before dark and open up the guns of the rear ships who have the smoke of the line getting in the way. hey I learn something new again! Was wondering why stern chase shoots have so low hit rate. And so spawns a question.. How does one judge smoke interference, apart from constantly checking the hit rate window? Is it a simple matter of looking at the graphics? There is ofc the wind indicator but apparently smoke doesn't always blow absolute downwind. There're times when I check to find ships getting smoke interference but have no idea where it's coming from.
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Post by Fredrik W on May 24, 2015 13:08:29 GMT -6
Every ship leaves smoke tracks and when computing accuracy all smoke between the firing ship and the target are taken into account. So smoke from other ships might vary well come into it.
Smoke will move with the wind, but the ships are moving too, which means that smoke from the ship will generally appear to spread as combined vector of ship movement and wind movement.
Try to have the target not downwind, that will help.
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Post by julianbarker on May 24, 2015 14:27:19 GMT -6
I understand all the above. Just still confused by the Line Abreast option in the formation drop down box! :-)
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Post by randomizer on May 24, 2015 15:44:25 GMT -6
A change of bearing by turning together was always necessary to adopt line abreast since by itself; it was impossible to get from line ahead to line abreast without turning together onto a new bearing and this is true for the game as in reality. Merely ordering a formation in line ahead to adopt line abreast without any change in course would probably be a recipe for disaster even in peacetime.
As soon as any formation turns together onto a line of bearing it ceases to be in line ahead and becomes a de facto line abreast and you can see this in the game if you examine the formation in the status screen after making any turn together out of line ahead. A turn in succession order to any formation in line abreast was impossible to execute safely in the real world but you can often get away with doing so in SAI because friendly collisions are not modeled. Line abreast had little tactical use for big ships during the SAI time frame but was useful for torpedo flotillas attempting to close for torpedo attacks before turning back into line ahead once in range. So the line abreast formation retains some utility for light forces but not for big-ship pursuit in the vast majority of tactical situations.
One occasion where line abreast might make some sense by big-ships in pursuit is a turn towards a broken enemy in the face of a torpedo attack but this situation is rare and fraught with risk. Even then the goal would likely be to maintain contact in anticipation of being able to turn back into line ahead or onto a line of bearing to expose the enemy to the battle lines "A" arcs.
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