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Post by desdinova on Jul 21, 2019 19:52:06 GMT -6
Japan was always my favorite faction in RTW1. I felt like I was pretty good at that game; by the late-game, I'd usually be one of the richest factions in terms of budget - sometimes even #1. In RTW2, I can't seem to get ahead no matter how well I perform in actual wars and battles. I've tried several games, and I've basically always been dead last in budget and tonnage, even far behind such glorious naval powers as Italy and Russia. I'm not just griping; I brought data to support my argument. I took detailed notes from 1900-1932, from my most recent game that I tried doing as an AAR. I stopped because of a game breaking bug, but I also didn't feel like continuing because it was frustrating falling further and further behind in every area. Anyway, here are some graphs: Naval BudgetThe spikes at 1904, 1909, and 1919 are wars. In the first one, I took Port Arthur, Sakhalin, and Kamchatka; the second, I took Kiautschou Bay; in the third, I took all of Germany's pacific colonies + Tanganyika. It doesn't appear to have done a whole lot for my budget. We briefly surpassed Russia and Italy in that hump in the late 1920s, but fell back again when the unrest level hit 6+. Capital Ship Tonnage (B, BB, BC)Cruiser Tonnage (CA, CL)Escort Tonnage (DD, KE)Carrier Tonnage (CVL, CV)If Japan isn't too weak (although I feel like it should at least surpass Russia and Italy by the 1920s), how do you keep up with AI construction? I was keeping my large ships in reserve and suspending gunnery training during peacetime, but it just wasn't enough. The AI continuously has 2-5 battleships AND battlecruisers under construction at any given time, when I can afford two battleships at most, if I'm lucky. Is the AI still mothballing their entire fleet during peacetime? I thought that was done away with a long time ago.
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Post by deeznuts on Jul 21, 2019 20:16:19 GMT -6
Just a suggestion, instead of taking territories in peace deals just take nothing, the points instead go to your national resources and give more overall budget than taking territories.
It’s a bit meta but doing it at least once early game really does boost your economy quite a bit and is absolutely necessary for low budget nations, personally I have managed to get Austria-Hungary’s national resources up to third place overall by the 1930’s by not taking territories.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Jul 21, 2019 21:13:10 GMT -6
Japan is one of my 3 favorites (Germany Russia the others) in the stock game, and even though the cost of air-power is very obvious in this game I have still been able to be extremely successful with Japan. I can't say as I ever look too hard at how big my economy is; if I have all the ships I want I am happy. That being said I haven't noticed RTW2 prevents the same level of success as RTW1.
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Post by Fredrik W on Jul 22, 2019 0:23:05 GMT -6
There are no changes in the underlying economic model that should make Japan less powerful in RTW2 than in RTW1. However, it could be possible that there are other changes that impact Japan more than other nations, for example the added cost of airpower.
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Post by jishmael on Jul 22, 2019 0:51:25 GMT -6
I think there's some crucial data missing to really judge that save (also what is with all the ai cls? 😂) like percentages of budget in naval aircraft and training, amount of and budget spent on refitting, amount of submarines. Budget cuts due to land offensives and general tension lvls over time might all influence the budget development
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Post by desdinova on Jul 22, 2019 1:02:20 GMT -6
I think there's some crucial data missing to really judge that save (also what is with all the ai cls? 😂) like percentages of budget in naval aircraft and training, amount of and budget spent on refitting, amount of submarines. Budget cuts due to land offensives and general tension lvls over time might all influence the budget development If you're referring to the massive uptick in French cruisers, those are actually all heavy cruisers - they have 20, and almost all of them have 10" guns. It actually would be an interesting strategy, since in this universe a 1913 treaty restricted all ships to 12" main armament and 20,000-tons displacement and there are still a ton of legacy 12"-armed battleships and battlecruisers around. A swarm of 9x10", 30 knot heavy cruisers would probably be pretty effective against slow 12" battlecruisers with paper armor.
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Post by mycophobia on Jul 22, 2019 2:12:38 GMT -6
There are no changes in the underlying economic model that should make Japan less powerful in RTW2 than in RTW1. However, it could be possible that there are other changes that impact Japan more than other nations, for example the added cost of airpower. I think the growing cost of post 1925 ship may end up making Japan having a harder time to keep up, especially if you don't reserve/scrap many ships at the end of the war. Most other nation in game have a similar problem but Japan I feel is more impacted due to their comparatively strained budget and the fact that we player tends to expect Japan to end up with a lot more than say, AH. I don't think Japan in rtw 2 is much weaker than them in RTW 1, but they are probably not scaling as well as they could be given the time frame of the game.
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Post by JagdFlanker on Jul 22, 2019 3:22:07 GMT -6
Japan is perhaps more reliant on doing well early compared to other countries to get their cash flowing, however if you get a couple early wins and don't take territories you can really pump your dosh up
in this case (1920 start i think) i got a 10, then a 20 (lowered to 16 since i took Kamchatka i think) from Russia and my budget exploded - UK caught up and passed me soon after (since they get budget boosts to 'keep their navy preeminent'), but still this was the first time i passed UK in budget for any (non-USA) nation
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Post by rimbecano on Jul 22, 2019 4:35:09 GMT -6
Carrier Tonnage (CVL, CV)If Japan isn't too weak (although I feel like it should at least surpass Russia and Italy by the 1920s), how do you keep up with AI construction? I was keeping my large ships in reserve and suspending gunnery training during peacetime, but it just wasn't enough. The AI continuously has 2-5 battleships AND battlecruisers under construction at any given time, when I can afford two battleships at most, if I'm lucky. Is the AI still mothballing their entire fleet during peacetime? I thought that was done away with a long time ago. I haven't played Japan yet in RTW2, but a strategy I've used to stretch my budget in general is to build my carrier fleet entirely of rebuilds of obsolete ships. If you don't make the rebuilds faster than 25 knots or so, you can get three or four rebuild carriers for the price of one keel-up carrier of the same capacity. They end up being rather crappy carriers, but I don't find speed in carriers to be especially important beyond the 20 kt requirement for CVLs without catapults and the 24 kt requirement for CVs, the most important thing is getting as much airwing capacity into your fleet as cheaply as possible (plus, carrier rebuilds take only 12 months, whereas a new build takes 2 or 3 years).
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Post by jishmael on Jul 22, 2019 5:10:27 GMT -6
I think there's some crucial data missing to really judge that save (also what is with all the ai cls? 😂) like percentages of budget in naval aircraft and training, amount of and budget spent on refitting, amount of submarines. Budget cuts due to land offensives and general tension lvls over time might all influence the budget development If you're referring to the massive uptick in French cruisers, those are actually all heavy cruisers - they have 20, and almost all of them have 10" guns. It actually would be an interesting strategy, since in this universe a 1913 treaty restricted all ships to 12" main armament and 20,000-tons displacement and there are still a ton of legacy 12"-armed battleships and battlecruisers around. A swarm of 9x10", 30 knot heavy cruisers would probably be pretty effective against slow 12" battlecruisers with paper armor. I've designed multiple fast Cas to this concept during treaties. Whenever there's a Treaty it just leads to a massive 3 or 4 party war within a year, so they never finished. I think such a ship could even potentially kill some of the ai bcs with 7" armor under the right conditions
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Post by desdinova on Jul 22, 2019 8:16:03 GMT -6
There are no changes in the underlying economic model that should make Japan less powerful in RTW2 than in RTW1. However, it could be possible that there are other changes that impact Japan more than other nations, for example the added cost of airpower. I think the growing cost of post 1925 ship may end up making Japan having a harder time to keep up, especially if you don't reserve/scrap many ships at the end of the war. Most other nation in game have a similar problem but Japan I feel is more impacted due to their comparatively strained budget and the fact that we player tends to expect Japan to end up with a lot more than say, AH. I don't think Japan in rtw 2 is much weaker than them in RTW 1, but they are probably not scaling as well as they could be given the time frame of the game. Yeah, I don't mean too weak as in unplayable or really unbalanced, I mean too weak as in "impossible to recreate the historical IJN within the budget, even with non-historical budgets set". Right now they occupy the "hard mode" role, that might be more historical if it went to Russia.
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Post by dohboy on Jul 22, 2019 8:28:03 GMT -6
I think Japan should get a morale bonus that reduces unrest, they had a great historical advantage in that department.
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Post by kaguya on Jul 22, 2019 10:51:10 GMT -6
It hasn't been too much of a problem for me. I have no idea how economic growth is modeled, but spamming submarines in the early game for easy government overthrows and not taking territories gets me some nasty budgets towards mid game
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Post by Blothorn on Jul 22, 2019 10:55:53 GMT -6
My biggest complaint about Japan is that the AI has no clue how to handle destroyers in a surprise attack on admiral mode. At least they should try to get in sight of the target point before getting distracted torpedoing each other in a rush to kill a transport.
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Post by Fredrik W on Jul 22, 2019 23:56:46 GMT -6
I think Japan should get a morale bonus that reduces unrest, they had a great historical advantage in that department. They already have that. Unrest is more unlikely in nations with "Eastern" government than in other nations.
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