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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 16, 2020 15:59:51 GMT -6
I decided to continue with suggestions. The British in 1921 ordered a minelaying cruiser named the HMS Adventure. Here is a link to the Wikipedia article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Adventure_(M23) I am going to read more in D. K. Brown. I can build a minelaying cruiser but I cannot load 340 mines or some figure above the limit of fifty. This type of cruiser could be useful as a raider. She would have the ability to attack transports and lay mines in key locations. If assigned to the fleet, she could be used to lay mines in front of an enemy fleet while the friendly fleet was retreating. Maybe a special designation for minelaying cruiser could be added. Possibly two different size mines could be added. We could be able to take old light cruisers and destroyers and rebuild them to mining ships. With four mine ejectors per ship, and 50-60 mines per ejector, one ship could lay 300 mines. I have read about cruisers and destroyers laying mines and an enemy running into them. Here is an attempt to build a minelaying cruiser in 1920 - I cannot assign more mines -  |
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Apr 16, 2020 21:46:09 GMT -6
I decided to continue with suggestions. The British in 1921 ordered a minelaying cruiser named the HMS Adventure. Here is a link to the Wikipedia article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Adventure_(M23) I am going to read more in D. K. Brown. I can build a minelaying cruiser but I cannot load 340 mines or some figure above the limit of fifty. This type of cruiser could be useful as a raider. She would have the ability to attack transports and lay mines in key locations. If assigned to the fleet, she could be used to lay mines in front of an enemy fleet while the friendly fleet was retreating. Maybe a special designation for minelaying cruiser could be added. Possibly two different size mines could be added. We could be able to take old light cruisers and destroyers and rebuild them to mining ships. With four mine ejectors per ship, and 50-60 mines per ejector, one ship could lay 300 mines. I have read about cruisers and destroyers laying mines and an enemy running into them. Here is an attempt to build a minelaying cruiser in 1920 - I cannot assign more mines - The number of mines allowed is linked to the weight of the ship, a cruiser ingame would need to weigh...30000 tons to carry about 300 mines. IMO there should be a 'minelaying cruisers' or 'extended mine laying racks' tech to increase light cruiser mine capacity to much higher amounts. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 17, 2020 7:05:03 GMT -6
I decided to continue with suggestions. The British in 1921 ordered a minelaying cruiser named the HMS Adventure. Here is a link to the Wikipedia article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Adventure_(M23) I am going to read more in D. K. Brown. I can build a minelaying cruiser but I cannot load 340 mines or some figure above the limit of fifty. This type of cruiser could be useful as a raider. She would have the ability to attack transports and lay mines in key locations. If assigned to the fleet, she could be used to lay mines in front of an enemy fleet while the friendly fleet was retreating. Maybe a special designation for minelaying cruiser could be added. Possibly two different size mines could be added. We could be able to take old light cruisers and destroyers and rebuild them to mining ships. With four mine ejectors per ship, and 50-60 mines per ejector, one ship could lay 300 mines. I have read about cruisers and destroyers laying mines and an enemy running into them. Here is an attempt to build a minelaying cruiser in 1920 - I cannot assign more mines - The number of mines allowed is linked to the weight of the ship, a cruiser ingame would need to weigh...30000 tons to carry about 300 mines. IMO there should be a 'minelaying cruisers' or 'extended mine laying racks' tech to increase light cruiser mine capacity to much higher amounts. Building or converting a light cruiser or possibly an old heavy cruiser does require modifying the ship to be able to carry the ordnance. In some cases, the torpedo racks are or should be removed. Possibly some of the secondary guns all in the quest for more space and weight control. Thanks for your comments and support. |
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Apr 17, 2020 10:24:47 GMT -6
The number of mines allowed is linked to the weight of the ship, a cruiser ingame would need to weigh...30000 tons to carry about 300 mines. IMO there should be a 'minelaying cruisers' or 'extended mine laying racks' tech to increase light cruiser mine capacity to much higher amounts. Building or converting a light cruiser or possibly an old heavy cruiser does require modifying the ship to be able to carry the ordnance. In some cases, the torpedo racks are or should be removed. Possibly some of the secondary guns all in the quest for more space and weight control. Thanks for your comments and support. Of course, modifications were needed. Problem is that ingame even 'brand new' max sized minelaying cruisers can barely carry anything. Historically as you have said, they could refit old cruisers to carry 300 mines or more. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 17, 2020 13:08:50 GMT -6
Building or converting a light cruiser or possibly an old heavy cruiser does require modifying the ship to be able to carry the ordnance. In some cases, the torpedo racks are or should be removed. Possibly some of the secondary guns all in the quest for more space and weight control. Thanks for your comments and support. Of course, modifications were needed. Problem is that ingame even 'brand new' max sized minelaying cruisers can barely carry anything. Historically as you have said, they could refit old cruisers to carry 300 mines or more. Hopefully, if the developers and team have the time, they can make some changes so we can refit or build minelaying cruisers. This was an important function in naval warfare and still is, even though mine detection technically very advance. For the time period of the game, it was very important. It caused the British Home fleet to used distant blockade instead of close blockade and the US used this against the Japanese home islands. |
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Post by brygun on Apr 28, 2020 4:32:01 GMT -6
Query:
What is the weight of real sea mines?
What is the weight of putting a "unit" of mines on ship?
Wondering if there might be multiple mines per unit in the game, or that we can think of it in that way.
Preference would be to show the # of mines and the "mine score" used by the game
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Post by brygun on Apr 28, 2020 4:33:46 GMT -6
I could also see a higher mine count as being something to explore with low cost Cruiser, Light, Raider.
The 1 (or 2) x 4-6" maingun, a few secondaries plus sets of mines. Speed not much 20ish knots. Cheap enough to put 20-40 across the globe making issues for enemy shipping.
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Post by stevethecat on Apr 28, 2020 5:17:34 GMT -6
Query: What is the weight of real sea mines? What is the weight of putting a "unit" of mines on ship? Wondering if there might be multiple mines per unit in the game, or that we can think of it in that way. Preference would be to show the # of mines and the "mine score" used by the game Most British mines weighed about 200kg with a 100kg bursting charge. Plus grounding chains etc. |
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Post by wlbjork on Apr 28, 2020 8:53:14 GMT -6
Most British mines circa WW1 were indeed small 200kg gross weight systems. However, WW2 had much larger mines in play, principally the Mk XV and Mk XVII had warheads of either 320lb (145kg) or 500lb (227kg). link: www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WAMBR_Mines.php |
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Post by aeson on Apr 28, 2020 10:12:13 GMT -6
What is the weight of putting a "unit" of mines on ship? Within the game, it's 1 ton per mine (10 tons per 10 mines). Adding mines also costs AA positions - looks like about ~1-1.5 per 10 mines, minimum 1.
Also, if ships like HMS Adventure and USS Terror give an accurate impression of how much capability you have to give up on a minelaying cruiser (CM) as compared to a conventional light cruiser (CL), then I would have to say that under the current rules large numbers of mines would be severely undercosted, and also that building an Adventure- or Terror-style CM in the game would be a very bad idea if it's still classed as a CL.
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Post by stevethecat on Apr 28, 2020 12:27:16 GMT -6
Also, if ships like HMS Adventure and USS Terror give an accurate impression of how much capability you have to give up on a minelaying cruiser (CM) as compared to a conventional light cruiser (CL), then I would have to say that under the current rules large numbers of mines would be severely undercosted,
That's what they gave up to lay 300 mines from a small cruiser hull, and even with that they kept reasonable speed and range for the era and their volume.
As is mines are limited in number, heavy and greatly diminshed by the player having no influence over how they are utilised.
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Post by aeson on Apr 28, 2020 15:36:42 GMT -6
That's what they gave up to lay 300 mines from a small cruiser hull, and even with that they kept reasonable speed and range for the era and their volume. Adventure may have been a small cruiser by Second World War standards, but for when it was laid down it most certainly was not - it's about the same size as Emerald, Omaha, Duguay-Trouin, or Giussano and considerably larger than slightly-earlier light cruisers such as Danae, Carlisle, Kuma, or Nagara.
Also, speed and range are all well and good, but if it's classed as a light cruiser within the game then it needs to be able to act like one, and Adventure has very little armament to speak of compared to historical light cruisers of similar size and year - merely four 4.7" guns and no torpedoes, whereas Emerald carried seven, Duguay-Trouin eight, and Omaha twelve 6" guns as well as ten (Omaha), twelve (Duguay-Trouin), or sixteen (Emerald) 21" torpedo tubes. |
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Post by brygun on Apr 29, 2020 13:10:57 GMT -6
That's a very good point. It seems plausible to use them if the player remembered to but them on Raider status. Perhaps not ideal it would tend to keep a minelayer out of fleet battles. AFAIK minelayers do count for offensive roles in the raider duty. Raiders can be intercepted which does IMHO match that the enemy might catch the minelayer doing its jobs. CL can have 4" or 5" guns so that part fits. Its the need for large quantity of mines. I recall some modern ships carried mines below deck. Im not familiar enough with the 300 mines CL to know if it did that. It does mean that a ship might have a portion of its mines ready then feeding them onto the deck. For our game that would mean being able to retain some portion of its AA space while still carrying such large amounts of mines. |
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Post by stevethecat on Apr 29, 2020 14:33:26 GMT -6
I recall some modern ships carried mines below deck. Im not familiar enough with the 300 mines CL to know if it did that. It does mean that a ship might have a portion of its mines ready then feeding them onto the deck. For our game that would mean being able to retain some portion of its AA space while still carrying such large amounts of mines.
In the case of the Adventure etc the mines and rails were stored internally, that did leave the bulk of the upper deck free for equipment. Although the trade off for that large internal volume was a high sided ship so too much extra weight would affect the stability more than a similar sized conventional cruiser.
A dedicated mine layer class of cruiser could trade that off with lighter mines (they are twice as heavy ingame as vs reality) and no AA space being consumed in trade off for a limit on main gun size.
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