improved torpedo bomber torpedo loadouts

[christian]

currently late game torpedo bombers are worse than dive bombers in almost every way as such this is a suggestion to buff them and also make them more historically accurate





the ability for torpedo bombers to carry multiple torpedoes and for torpedoes to be diffrent weights

medium bombers, flying boats, and torpedo bombers should have the ability to carry multiple torpedoes this was done in real life (il post some example aircraft)


in addition to this the torpedo weight could be stated

so in front of how many torpedoes it carried it could also say how heavy the torpedo was  such as 800 lbs 1000 lbs 1200 lbs 1500 lbs 1800 lbs 2000 lbs or heavier

for example we can see that the japanese over the course of ww2 got improved airborne torpedoes which weighted more and had a substantially bigger warhead 
(refer to the table of japanese torpedoes i posted)

this could be reflected in the manufacturer being able to upgrade planes thus giving them heavier and thus better torpedoes much like with bombs on dive bombers


basically late war planes would have a single torpedo in the light load tab (like with dive bombers lightest bomb load) and have 2 torpedoes in the medium and 3 in the heavy

it would say L(1) for the light load under the torpedo tab M(2) for the medium load (2 torpedoes) and H(3) for heavy load 

if there was no light load it would simply say M(1) and H(2) or simply H(1) if it could only carry a singular torpedo
(like shown in the picture yes i know its very small but yeah thats what i could do)

torpedo bombers with only a single torpedo could also carry heavier torpedoes than ones with multiple though that is up to the devs to decide (irl heavy torpedoes could still be carried in higher numbers than 2 by some torpedo bombers) 



heinkel 111

www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/germany/aircrafts/heinkel_he111/Heinkel_He_111_torpedo_mounted_under_aircraft.jpg

AM-1 Mauler

i.redd.it/v3zk1ohu69a41.jpg

TB2D though this was a prototype it was designed to carry FOUR TORPEDOES

www.militaryimages.net/media/torpedo-bombers.114529/full?d=1521520107


H6K5 (no irl picture with torpedoes but it could mount 2)

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/KawanishiH6K.jpg


wellington bomber

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Vickers_wellington_VIII_torpedo.jpg

PBY catalina

i.pinimg.com/originals/f4/f0/11/f4f011219cf62b1991efbc0f3c2b031f.jpg

BTD-1 

i.imgur.com/J8Mh5Fw.png


and most likely more





THE TORPEDO AMOUNT SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE DROPPED AT ONCE LIKE WITH BOMBERS AND NOT IN SEPERATE ATTACKS

this means during one attack run all the payload can be dropped like with bombers

Attachments:

[aeson]

The way in which this would improve torpedo bombers is...?

Carriers only have a limited number of torpedoes for their torpedo bombers; setting things up so that they run out of them faster does not seem to me as though it would be an improvement.

[christian]

Apr 17, 2020 19:10:14 GMT -6 aeson said:

The way in which this would improve torpedo bombers is...?

Carriers only have a limited number of torpedoes for their torpedo bombers; setting things up so that they run out of them faster does not seem to me as though it would be an improvement.

as carriers grow in size and torpedo bombers can carry more torpedoes the carrier could simply be supplied with more torpedoes

perhaps a increased torpedo storage option could be a thing


also 9/10 times it dosent matter as atleast half the torpedo bomber strike will be shot down in their attack due to being the most vulnerable strike aircraft

on top of that after running out of torpedoes they can just use bombs (which as of right now are actually more effective than torpedoes assuming it can carry 2 bombs) 



besides land based units dont have torpedo limits last i looked and torpedo bombers from carriers would be unlikely to carry more than 2 torpedoes so an increase in carrier torpedo numbers could be done




currently torpedo bombers fall off HARD late game as they get shot down way too easily are slower than fighters and dive bombers (limiting squadron speed) and are not as effective as dive bombers due to their lower accuracy and quite similar damage (torpedo vs 1400 lb bomb)

also fighters late game replace torpedo bombers for bombing since they can carry as heavy bombloads (ive got a fighter with 2x2000 lb bombs yet my TB has 2x1400 lb bombs) 

with the amount of bombentorpedo hits you get from fighters glide bombing there is 0 reason to use torpedo bombers



increasing the damage they can deal by 2x and 3x for land based units would make torpedo bombers worth using


guided bombs does not help make land based torpedoes any more relevant infact the exact opposite 

[rimbecano]

Apr 17, 2020 19:10:14 GMT -6 aeson said:

The way in which this would improve torpedo bombers is...?

Carriers only have a limited number of torpedoes for their torpedo bombers; setting things up so that they run out of them faster does not seem to me as though it would be an improvement.

Being able to deliver the same number of torpedoes at the risk of half the number of planes (or using the extra slots in the deck load to beef up the fighter escort) is nothing to be sneezed at.

That said, I'm not sure I'm aware of any action in WWII where multiple torpedos were carried by carrier-borne aircraft, even if they had the capacity to do so. The big IRL improvement in torpedo bombing was determining that torpedoes could be deployed from high speed and altitude, particularly if ruggedized, which vastly increased the survivability of TBs. In the late war, most of the distance covered by a US aerial torpedo after the drop was in the air, not the water.

[aeson]

Apr 18, 2020 12:00:09 GMT -6 rimbecano said:

Apr 17, 2020 19:10:14 GMT -6 aeson said:

The way in which this would improve torpedo bombers is...?

Carriers only have a limited number of torpedoes for their torpedo bombers; setting things up so that they run out of them faster does not seem to me as though it would be an improvement.

Being able to deliver the same number of torpedoes at the risk of half the number of planes (or using the extra slots in the deck load to beef up the fighter escort) is nothing to be sneezed at.

Except that it seems to me that 2-3 torpedoes dropped in a single attack run by one plane should be strictly worse than 2-3 torpedoes dropped in a single attack run by 2-3 planes in every way but the number of aircraft required to do it, because they're going to be much more closely grouped and thus easier to evade and more likely to interfere with one another, and if you tried to give the torpedoes a 'spread' you'd probably end up interfering with torpedoes dropped by other aircraft in the same formation. Additionally, concentrating the same ordnance onto fewer planes means that every aircraft you lose costs you a greater portion of the strike's potential damage, and if the target's air defenses can correctly identify the primary threats it also means that you'll have fewer aircraft simultaneously taking defensive fire, with likely negative effects on the aircraft's hit rate and survivability.

That said, I'm not sure I'm aware of any action in WWII where multiple torpedos were carried by carrier-borne aircraft, even if they had the capacity to do so. The big IRL improvement in torpedo bombing was determining that torpedoes could be deployed from high speed and altitude, particularly if ruggedized, which vastly increased the survivability of TBs. In the late war, most of the distance covered by a US aerial torpedo after the drop was in the air, not the water.

I'm not aware of any action at all where multiple torpedoes were dropped against a single target in a single attack run by a single aircraft, whether or not the aircraft was capable of carrying multiple torpedoes, whether or not you're limiting things to carrier-borne aircraft, and whether or not you're limiting the time period to the Second World War - for example, when Skyraiders made a torpedo attack against the Hwacheon Dam in South Korea, each only carried a single torpedo despite at least one version of the Skyraider having the theoretical ability to carry three torpedoes.

It seems to me more likely that aircraft equipped with multiple torpedoes were intended to use them to make multiple attack runs in a single sortie than to drop multiple torpedoes in a single attack run.

[rimbecano]

Apr 18, 2020 12:45:23 GMT -6 aeson said:

It seems to me more likely that aircraft equipped with multiple torpedoes were intended to use them to make multiple attack runs in a single sortie than to drop multiple torpedoes in a single attack run.

I didn't say anything about the number of runs to be made when loaded with multiple torpedos, and unless I'm missing something, christian didn't either.

[aeson]

Apr 18, 2020 13:15:58 GMT -6 rimbecano said:

Apr 18, 2020 12:45:23 GMT -6 aeson said:

It seems to me more likely that aircraft equipped with multiple torpedoes were intended to use them to make multiple attack runs in a single sortie than to drop multiple torpedoes in a single attack run.

I didn't say anything about the number of runs to be made when loaded with multiple torpedos, and unless I'm missing something, christian didn't either.

If you aren't dropping them in a single attack run, carrying two or three torpedoes isn't three times the punch; it's two or three times as many punches in a single bout.

[rimbecano]

Apr 18, 2020 13:23:11 GMT -6 aeson said:

If you aren't dropping them in a single attack run, carrying two or three torpedoes isn't three times the punch; it's two or three times as many punches in a single bout.

Given the time spent traveling to / returning from the target as compared to the time taken up by an attack run, the two are effectively equivalent as far as the striking power of the originating carrier is concerned.

[aeson]

Apr 18, 2020 14:40:37 GMT -6 rimbecano said:

Given the time spent traveling to / returning from the target as compared to the time taken up by an attack run, the two are effectively equivalent as far as the striking power of the originating carrier is concerned.

Not really. Torpedoes dropped in a single attack run can only have one intended target and will only hit other targets accidentally, if at all; torpedoes dropped over several attack runs can have several intended targets. That's a very significant difference, especially if you're targeting mostly-lighter ship types that are both more numerous and less able to survive multiple torpedo strikes.

It'd also have a significant effect on torpedo plane survivability, because if they're going to make multiple attack runs then they necessarily have to stay in the target area longer, thereby increasing their exposure to CAP and anti-aircraft fire, and since the torpedo planes may already be damaged after the first attack run you might also see a higher abort or loss rate on the later attack runs, though counteracting that to some extent is that the enemy air defenses may be disrupted or exhausted from the earlier attack runs and other strikes.

[christian]

Apr 18, 2020 12:45:23 GMT -6 aeson said:

Apr 18, 2020 12:00:09 GMT -6 rimbecano said:

Being able to deliver the same number of torpedoes at the risk of half the number of planes (or using the extra slots in the deck load to beef up the fighter escort) is nothing to be sneezed at.

Except that it seems to me that 2-3 torpedoes dropped in a single attack run by one plane should be strictly worse than 2-3 torpedoes dropped in a single attack run by 2-3 planes in every way but the number of aircraft required to do it, because they're going to be much more closely grouped and thus easier to evade and more likely to interfere with one another, and if you tried to give the torpedoes a 'spread' you'd probably end up interfering with torpedoes dropped by other aircraft in the same formation. Additionally, concentrating the same ordnance onto fewer planes means that every aircraft you lose costs you a greater portion of the strike's potential damage, and if the target's air defenses can correctly identify the primary threats it also means that you'll have fewer aircraft simultaneously taking defensive fire, with likely negative effects on the aircraft's hit rate and survivability.

That said, I'm not sure I'm aware of any action in WWII where multiple torpedos were carried by carrier-borne aircraft, even if they had the capacity to do so. The big IRL improvement in torpedo bombing was determining that torpedoes could be deployed from high speed and altitude, particularly if ruggedized, which vastly increased the survivability of TBs. In the late war, most of the distance covered by a US aerial torpedo after the drop was in the air, not the water.

I'm not aware of any action at all where multiple torpedoes were dropped against a single target in a single attack run by a single aircraft, whether or not the aircraft was capable of carrying multiple torpedoes, whether or not you're limiting things to carrier-borne aircraft, and whether or not you're limiting the time period to the Second World War - for example, when Skyraiders made a torpedo attack against the Hwacheon Dam in South Korea, each only carried a single torpedo despite at least one version of the Skyraider having the theoretical ability to carry three torpedoes.

It seems to me more likely that aircraft equipped with multiple torpedoes were intended to use them to make multiple attack runs in a single sortie than to drop multiple torpedoes in a single attack run.

i see no reason why they could not use multiple torpedoes in one attack run 


the use against the south korean dam might have been to A reduce load on the skyraiders to make them able to perform better against enemy fighters (skyraider could work as a fighter)
B to gain more range C spread the payload out between planes in case of attack

[christian]

Apr 18, 2020 17:00:18 GMT -6 aeson said:

Apr 18, 2020 14:40:37 GMT -6 rimbecano said:

Given the time spent traveling to / returning from the target as compared to the time taken up by an attack run, the two are effectively equivalent as far as the striking power of the originating carrier is concerned.

Not really. Torpedoes dropped in a single attack run can only have one intended target and will only hit other targets accidentally, if at all; torpedoes dropped over several attack runs can have several intended targets. That's a very significant difference, especially if you're targeting mostly-lighter ship types that are both more numerous and less able to survive multiple torpedo strikes.

It'd also have a significant effect on torpedo plane survivability, because if they're going to make multiple attack runs then they necessarily have to stay in the target area longer, thereby increasing their exposure to CAP and anti-aircraft fire, and since the torpedo planes may already be damaged after the first attack run you might also see a higher abort or loss rate on the later attack runs, though counteracting that to some extent is that the enemy air defenses may be disrupted or exhausted from the earlier attack runs and other strikes.

considering as far as i know not a single other plane in the game currently can perform multiple air attacks even when carrying 2-4 bombs (torpedo bombers with 2 bombs fighters with 2 or bombers with 4) i see absolutely no reason why torpedo bombers should do multiple runs


them dropping 2 torpedoes would merely be a good way of countering the improving torpedo protection and damage control seen in 1945-1970 combined with the high lossrates and low accuracy of torpedo bombers meaning you actually get more hits and have a chance of sinking a target with torpedoes 

against CAs and BBs and CVs it would mean twice as much damage would be inflicted by torpedo bombers and land based torpedo medium bombers

these planes carrying multiple torpedoes would be something only seen after 1940-1945 aka an endgame feature for carriers

That said, I'm not sure I'm aware of any action in WWII where multiple torpedos were carried by carrier-borne aircraft, even if they had the capacity to do so. The big IRL improvement in torpedo bombing was determining that torpedoes could be deployed from high speed and altitude, particularly if ruggedized, which vastly increased the survivability of TBs. In the late war, most of the distance covered by a US aerial torpedo after the drop was in the air, not the water.

this is mostly because multiple torpedoes on carrier borne aircraft was a post 1945 thing when carriers got powerfull catapults multiple torpedoes before this time were simply too heavy and thus why you saw them ONLY on land based units before 1945

Except that it seems to me that 2-3 torpedoes dropped in a single attack run by one plane should be strictly worse than 2-3 torpedoes dropped in a single attack run by 2-3 planes in every way but the number of aircraft required to do it, because they're going to be much more closely grouped and thus easier to evade and more likely to interfere with one another, and if you tried to give the torpedoes a 'spread' you'd probably end up interfering with torpedoes dropped by other aircraft in the same formation. Additionally, concentrating the same ordnance onto fewer planes means that every aircraft you lose costs you a greater portion of the strike's potential damage, and if the target's air defenses can correctly identify the primary threats it also means that you'll have fewer aircraft simultaneously taking defensive fire, with likely negative effects on the aircraft's hit rate and survivability.

but you will also notice that when you can carry as many torpedoes with a 20 bomber attack as with a 40 attack you can instead of taking 40 torpedo bombers take 20 and take TWENTY extra escort fighters which will put up a far far better defense than anything else 


in an attack by 20 torpedo bombers 10 planes would come from each side to do a hammer and anvil attack


also as of right now there are no negative combat modifiers (outside of readying time) to having potentially 300-400 torpedo bombers participate in a single coordinated attack

i see absolutely no reason why this would be a problem with multiple torpedoes on said aircraft



the only major threat is AA which has half the targets to shoot and make disorganized and each loss costs more (though the 20 fighters are also targets for the aa or in the case you bring the same amount of planes as before nothing has changed and your strike power doubled)
but considering how pitiful aa is in rule the waves compared to real aa (it really dosent do much) its not really much of a concern 

[aeson]

Apr 18, 2020 17:24:44 GMT -6 christian said:

the improving torpedo protection and damage control seen in 1945-1970

What improving torpedo protection and damage control? The last technology in the Subdivision and Damage Control tree - Built-in Foam Extinguisher Systems - is nominally a 1940 technology, and Torpedo Protection IV - the best torpedo protection system - is nominally a 1924 development.

[christian]

Apr 18, 2020 17:35:38 GMT -6 aeson said:

Apr 18, 2020 17:24:44 GMT -6 christian said:

the improving torpedo protection and damage control seen in 1945-1970

What improving torpedo protection and damage control? The last technology in the Subdivision and Damage Control tree - Built-in Foam Extinguisher Systems - is nominally a 1940 technology, and Torpedo Protection IV - the best torpedo protection system - is nominally a 1924 development.

i usually find ships in 1950 to take far more punishment (despite being hit by bigger bombs) than in 1940 ive had enemy carriers be hit by 2-3 torpedoes and over 7 bombs and still sail on and the same goes for battleships while in 1940 it seems 1-2 torpedoes and a bomb sends them to the bottom (i am playing with ship mods so ship sizes are increasing alot in 1945 to 1950 this might be why) 


i also find the AI (with the exception of USA and great britain) are usually quite a few years behind on said technology


also their capital ships dont always have torpedo protection 4 for some odd reason 





besides i think dual torpedoes for 1950s torpedo bombers would be a nice historical implementation and despite having pros and cons over single torpedo bombers the player could choose wether to send them with one or 2 torpedoes so there should be no problem