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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 20, 2020 16:22:58 GMT -6
I want to propose a suggestion dealing with the Rounds per gun for secondary and tertiary guns. Currently there is no way to change this and there should be. Here is my point. The lighter secondary and tertiary guns should have about 200 or more rounds available for obvious reasons. They are lighter, have higher firing rates etc. The idea is to reduce the Rounds per gun for primary weapons, and increase them for the secondary and tertiary to save weight. On a cruiser especially, most combat is at medium or short range, and the secondary's will be far more useful especially with higher rounds per gun.
Weight savings by reducing the main armament would be way to gain speed and install heavier armor.
My example would be the British cruisers in the interwar period.
I know this might cause some extra programming but I think it would be very useful.
Note: I am not certain that this should apply to battleships or battle cruisers. But it might be good for light and heavy cruisers, armored cruisers and such. For the bigger ships, maybe only the tertiary guns should be considered.
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Post by hawkeye on Apr 20, 2020 22:40:50 GMT -6
I generally agree with the suggestion, since I run out of ammo on secondary/tertiary guns regularly, especially in the early game (I did at first for the main guns too, but I can increase the ammo load for those).
That being said, why not just add the same mechanic we have for the main guns (i.e. choose how many rounds per gun are aboard) for secondary/tertiary guns too?
Or am I misunderstanding your proposal and this is what you want?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 21, 2020 6:20:52 GMT -6
I generally agree with the suggestion, since I run out of ammo on secondary/tertiary guns regularly, especially in the early game (I did at first for the main guns too, but I can increase the ammo load for those). That being said, why not just add the same mechanic we have for the main guns (i.e. choose how many rounds per gun are aboard) for secondary/tertiary guns too? Or am I misunderstanding your proposal and this is what you want? You understand my proposal exactly. We should be able to control the ammunition load-out for secondary and tertiary guns. As I stated, for cruisers and even destroyers later in the game, the secondaries can be or should be important since the lighter warships fight generally closer together, and the lighter guns have higher rounds per minute. Example: Baltimore class US cruiser - 8in. 55 caliber main gun ROF was 3-4 rounds per minute - main guns Secondary guns - 5 inch 38 caliber - ROF was 15-22 rounds per minute |
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Post by christian on Apr 21, 2020 7:14:52 GMT -6
I generally agree with the suggestion, since I run out of ammo on secondary/tertiary guns regularly, especially in the early game (I did at first for the main guns too, but I can increase the ammo load for those). That being said, why not just add the same mechanic we have for the main guns (i.e. choose how many rounds per gun are aboard) for secondary/tertiary guns too? Or am I misunderstanding your proposal and this is what you want? You understand my proposal exactly. We should be able to control the ammunition load-out for secondary and tertiary guns. As I stated, for cruisers and even destroyers later in the game, the secondaries can be or should be important since the lighter warships fight generally closer together, and the lighter guns have higher rounds per minute. Example: Baltimore class US cruiser - 8in. 55 caliber main gun ROF was 3-4 rounds per minute - main guns Secondary guns - 5 inch 38 caliber - ROF was 15-22 rounds per minute do keep in mind maximum practical rof in game will never be higher than 4 (and in 8 inch case around 2-3 without autoloader) but the ammo increase is very much still warranted in real life most ships carried in excess of 200 rounds per gunbarrel for secondaries |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 21, 2020 10:33:21 GMT -6
You understand my proposal exactly. We should be able to control the ammunition load-out for secondary and tertiary guns. As I stated, for cruisers and even destroyers later in the game, the secondaries can be or should be important since the lighter warships fight generally closer together, and the lighter guns have higher rounds per minute. Example: Baltimore class US cruiser - 8in. 55 caliber main gun ROF was 3-4 rounds per minute - main guns Secondary guns - 5 inch 38 caliber - ROF was 15-22 rounds per minute do keep in mind maximum practical rof in game will never be higher than 4 (and in 8 inch case around 2-3 without autoloader) but the ammo increase is very much still warranted in real life most ships carried in excess of 200 rounds per gunbarrel for secondaries I understand the limitations in programming the game. I used to program automatic test sets for the Navy. There is only so much the team can add without making the game a nightmare. |
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Post by hawkeye on Apr 21, 2020 10:45:51 GMT -6
I generally agree with the suggestion, since I run out of ammo on secondary/tertiary guns regularly, especially in the early game (I did at first for the main guns too, but I can increase the ammo load for those). That being said, why not just add the same mechanic we have for the main guns (i.e. choose how many rounds per gun are aboard) for secondary/tertiary guns too? Or am I misunderstanding your proposal and this is what you want? You understand my proposal exactly. We should be able to control the ammunition load-out for secondary and tertiary guns. As I stated, for cruisers and even destroyers later in the game, the secondaries can be or should be important since the lighter warships fight generally closer together, and the lighter guns have higher rounds per minute. Example: Baltimore class US cruiser - 8in. 55 caliber main gun ROF was 3-4 rounds per minute - main guns Secondary guns - 5 inch 38 caliber - ROF was 15-22 rounds per minute Ah, so I kinda _did_ misunderstand your proposal 
I thought you were suggesting something automatic, trading main-gun ammo for secondary/tertiary ammo.
All's clear now
Edit: Changed reply to blue due to screw-up with the quote system. |
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Post by secondcomingofzeno on Apr 21, 2020 22:26:43 GMT -6
do keep in mind maximum practical rof in game will never be higher than 4 (and in 8 inch case around 2-3 without autoloader) but the ammo increase is very much still warranted in real life most ships carried in excess of 200 rounds per gunbarrel for secondaries I understand the limitations in programming the game. I used to program automatic test sets for the Navy. There is only so much the team can add without making the game a nightmare. As far as I know, its not a limitation of programming in the game, it's intentional. If it was a limitation to 4 per turn, they could've just lowered every gun to something like 0.2 RPM and altered the time scale to match. |
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Post by captainloggy on Apr 22, 2020 1:08:01 GMT -6
Ok, someone has to help me here. What is the situation on secondary ammo currently? I thought it was unlimited (I never ran out conciously)
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 22, 2020 9:14:02 GMT -6
When you get a set of requirements and specifications in a request for a design of a ship, the purpose drives the specifications. If it is a trade protection for your trade lanes, then range is important. For a scout, it is speed and firepower. This simply means you have balance the weight between armament, hull weight, armor along with fuel and ordnance loads. During peacetime, you can reduce the ordnance loads. So, since the type and purpose of the ship is the key, secondary and tertiary ordnance loads become important. Remember that any round bigger than a 5 inch gun is heavy and will wear out the gun crews. So, if the range is medium to short, your best weapons will be the secondaries.
The design is a balancing act and you might submit many different design's from A-F for instance. Each changing one of the variables to give the Admiralty or the CONOPS a chance to make a decision. All navies have operated this way.
This is the reason I want to be able to change the secondary and tertiary ammunition loads and have it automatically increase when war starts. There is a lot more, but that is not relevant in this thread. I can present more in the history forum, if requested.
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Post by stevethecat on Apr 25, 2020 3:42:49 GMT -6
Just for curiosity I went for a little dive through the various ammo storage numbers for a few RN ships to see what the relationship was. Note all figures are listed 'Per Gun'.
KGV: 100 rounds per main gun (14"), 400 per secondary (5.25")
Vanguard: 100 (15"), 390 (5.25")
Renown: 120 (15"), 400 (4.5")
Warspite: 100 (15"), 230 (6") * High number of star shells as this was pre-radar, also lower shell count due to casemates and being non DP.
Nelson: 105 (16"), 150 (6")
County: 150 (8"), 200 (4")
Crown Colony: 200 (6"), 200 (4")
In practical terms casemate guns barely carried more shells than the main guns, the numbers being inflated by star shells, (which the game badly needs for night battles!!!). With their shorter range and being pre-DP a higher ammo count simply wasn't needed. The game could replicate this by saying that a casemate gun has 1.5x main gun ammo count for 6" and below (for example).
For secondary turrets it gets messier as it varies quite a bit. Allowing the player to set it and be able to change it on refits, especially once 'DP' is selected, would be nice. Personally I don't think I have ever run into the issue of running out but might have simply not noticed, but I'm all in favour of more player choice when it comes to ship design.
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Post by aeson on Apr 25, 2020 8:34:59 GMT -6
Ok, someone has to help me here. What is the situation on secondary ammo currently? I thought it was unlimited (I never ran out conciously) Currently, it appears to be 200 rounds/gun for 2" and 3" secondary guns; 150 rounds/gun for 4", 5", and 6" secondary guns; and 90 rounds per gun for heavier secondary guns. When I've looked at this in the past, it has appeared that ships can start engagements with slightly over- or under-filled secondary magazines.
As to running out, I've had ships run out of ammunition for all three batteries in the past, though that's a fairly unusual occurrence.
Edit: Here - an example of a ship that's run out of secondary (and main) ammunition: |
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