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Post by brygun on May 6, 2020 17:26:29 GMT -6
I did some quick research and my previous designs are far too big. The Coastal Defense ships of the northern nations like Norway, Finland, Swedan, Austri-Hungary and Germany, were really light cruisers which sacrificed speed for heavy guns and heavy armor. I have tried to build such a machine, but the game will not allow it. So I am going to try to modify the above designs down in tonnage, speed etc. to see if it will work. Another feature of coastal ships is that they would have a shallow draft. In real life this let them use water ways the invading enemy deep drafted ocean craft couldnt use. RTW2 doesn't allow us to trade around the ratios of draft, bean and length. Shore lines are "mono rated" or "uni rated" in that there is no distinction on what types of ships can be in a certain water area. Either it is everybody or its no one. So that aspect of coastal defense craft isn't protrayed in this simulation. Your fuel is medium which allows strategic moves during wartime. Suggest reducing it to short. Coastal boats usually didn't travel away from home waters. A move of a coastal monitor to a distant colony is theoritically possible though there would be difficulties as they aren't built for mid-ocean storms the way normal ships are.
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Post by brygun on May 6, 2020 17:35:19 GMT -6
BTM
Had a small engagement in which a BTM and another a BC where the leading squadron.
Sea state limited all ship speeds to 20 knots. BTM speed of 25 knots thus not a limiting factor.
BTM seemed to fight okay in this too.
I am reminded that I forgot to tell you one of the things about using BTM with supporting destroyers is how much you will be turning to avoid friendly torpedoes. BTMs are very much a high alertness play.
A single torpedo was fired by the BTM. Checking the ship details it was fired solo from a 4-rank deck tube. So the battleship torpedo logic, if thats even a thing, is dominating when to fire the torpedoes.
Note that I play on normal (Vice Admiral?) settings. Those playing on the setting where they can manually launch torpedoes could surely make better use of a broadside of 18 torpedoes.
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Post by brygun on May 6, 2020 22:07:45 GMT -6
Another BTM quick report
Thundercloud, 1st generation 18,000 ton BTM with 1x4 gun of 15in guns and 25 knots, scored a flash fire magazine detonation at around 7,000 yards.
Enemy target was a BC of 36,100 of 3x2 gun of 16in 30 knots. Turret armor 12.5" and belt armor 11.5"
Gun pen data of BTM Thundercloud shous 12.5" penetration possible out to 19,000 yards. Whether the enemy turret was hit on the front or side is not a deciding factor at this range: the shell can penetrate.
Enemy was fleeing possibly keeping its 2 foreward turrets in arc to support its aft turret. A side or front hit could have occured at these angles. Unknown if RTW2 include turret facing or detailed turret angling. If it accounts for the degrees of angling the front portion would recieve a significant boost though the weaker side only slightly.
At this range torpedoes have yet to be fired.
8 friendly DDs are accompanying the BTM Thunderchild. The DDs going 33 knots are slightly ahead.
It is suspected the torpedo risk, likely the DD torpedo risk, is keeping the enemy angled away.
What this does confirm is having powerful B grade (12" and up) guns on a ship that charges the enemy can create turret flash explosions.
This is seen to validate at least the battle monitor aspect of the BTM as it can kill through flash fires. In the perhaps 3 battles Ive had them in they have caused at least 3 flash fires. This is a brutal kill ratio.
Below is the text battle log. The fight wasn't long at all. There is almost no return fire from the enemy BC Furious before it exploded.
>>>>
Unidentified ship opens fire at BC Thunderchild!
BC Thunderchild fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
117 TB Focke-Wulf TRB-04 B : N strike take off from CV Octavius
11 MB Fieseler MDM-01 : Recon land on Naval air station Wilhelmshaven
11 MB Fieseler MDM-01 : Recon land on Naval air station Emden
11 MB Fieseler MDM-01 : Recon land on Naval air station Emden
11 MB Fieseler MDM-01 : Recon land on Naval air station Emden
11 MB Fieseler MDM-01 : Recon land on Naval air station Emden
BC Thunderchild fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! 1 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
BC Thunderchild fires 4 4in guns at BC Furious-class! 2 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
2BC Furious-class Hit
13 F Heinkel FTR-08 : CAP land on Airbase Pillau
BC Thunderclap fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
DD S23 sights an unknown ship
DD S16 fires 2 5in guns at DD Afridi-class! 1 hits
2DD Afridi-class Hit
BC Thundercloud fires 4 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderclap fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderchild fires 4 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 1 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
BC Furious-class fires 4 medium guns at DD S16! 1 hits
2DD S16 Near miss!
13 F Heinkel FTR-08 : CAP take off from Airbase Danzig
BC Thunderchild identifies unknown ship as BB
DD G40 is out of ammo for guns that bear!
DD S23 fires 1 5in guns at DD Nubian-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderclap fires 4 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderchild fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderchild fires 4 4in guns at BC Furious-class! 1 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
BC Furious-class fires 4 medium guns at DD S16! 1 hits
2DD S16 Near miss! Torpedo tubes damaged by splinters!
12 F Heinkel FTR-08 : Escort land on CVL Diamond
1One F Heinkel FTR-08 is damaged while landing on CVL Diamond
11 S Messerschmitt WSB-02 F : Recon land on CL Darling
CL Darling slows down for floatplane recovery!
DD G39 fires 2 5in guns at DD Afridi-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thundercloud fires 4 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderclap fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderchild fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderchild fires 4 4in guns at BC Furious-class! 1 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
CL Darling slows down for floatplane recovery!
DD V48 sights an unknown ship
DD S22 fires 1 3in guns at BC Furious-class! 1 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
DD S16 fires 2 5in guns at DD Afridi-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
DD S15 fires 2 5in guns at DD Afridi-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thundercloud fires 3 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderclap fires 4 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thunderchild fires 4 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 1 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
BC Thunderchild fires 4 4in guns at BC Furious-class! 1 hits
2BC Furious-class Hit
BC Furious-class fires 2 heavy guns at BC Thunderchild! Target straddled! 0 hits
CL Cleopatra-class opens fire at DD V48!
13 F Heinkel FTR-08 : CAP land on Airbase Danzig
CL Darling slows down for floatplane recovery!
DD DD v008 fires 2 5in guns at DD Afridi-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
DD S15 fires 2 5in guns at DD Afridi-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
DD S23 fires 1 5in guns at DD Afridi-class! Target straddled! 0 hits
BC Thundercloud fires 4 15in guns at BC Furious-class! Target straddled! 1 hits
9BC Furious-class Turret A hit T * Turret flash fire! Ship blows up!
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Post by brygun on May 6, 2020 22:28:03 GMT -6
Further into that battle
Thunderchild being up to 60% damage was rotated out
Thundercloud and Thunderclap were kept aggressive bow and speed toward enemy. Another flash fire kill occured.
When they were damaged Tcloud and Tclap were turned away. Friendly DDs were wrecked and no longer supporting.
2 enemy BC went into a classic parrallel position. They soon gunned down Tcloud and Tclap. Each BC being "classic" had at least 6 heavy guns each for 12+ from ~60,000 tons total displacement vs the 2 BTM 4 heavy guns and 36,000 tons total displacement.
edit: It should be noted that partly to test the BTM concept out the 2 BTM and their 8 DD were sent against the main enemy force. In addition to the 2 BB that gunned them down there several CL and numerous DD there as well. Another 2 BB/BC nearby possibly had long gunnery range. The main friendly fleet was well off to the rear.
My tactical instincts were to fall the 2 BTM back toward my main fleet. This was to see what they could do. The flash fire kills are great. The slugging out without friendly DDs is not something they do well.
Take away:
BTM are a great complementary flash fire kills to a charge of DDs. As your DDs thin pull the BTM back to your own forces. By then hopefully there have been several flash fire kills from the BTM and a few kills or cripples from the destroyer DDs.
BTM torps themselves are of limited use. However they can be useful and don't weigh much. Would be of more use to players using manual torpedo launches.
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on May 7, 2020 6:46:12 GMT -6
I have one - super cruiser 18 000t 9 12" guns, preferably 13" 7" belt armor 3" deck armor 10" turret armor 30-32kn
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Post by brygun on May 7, 2020 8:13:11 GMT -6
I have one - super cruiser 18 000t 9 12" guns, preferably 13" 7" belt armor 3" deck armor 10" turret armor 30-32kn In my cruiser strategy guide that would fall into the BCSG = Battlecruiser Small Gun set. nws-online.proboards.com/thread/4319/c4-complex-considerations-cruiser-configurationsBased on the speed its likely a 1940s ish design. It can do many missions except really big gun throwing. By late game airplanes dominate so having 2 BCSG with more AA positions and two evading targets. The smaller size keeps it affordable. Personally I prefer to keep to armor my turrets as front = their caliber (or that of the enemy) with turret top at 1/3 plus a bit. In this case it would 12" T and 4" TT. At 5.5" TT you start to have chances to survive medium bomb hits so 12"/6" Turret armor is an option.
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on May 8, 2020 12:47:16 GMT -6
So 20 000t(it jumps at 20100t in size), 30kn, 11" armor on turrets, 6" TT, 2 TD and 9 13" guns, plenty of AA. Rest is same. Cost is around 80 000, so maybe 20-30 000 more than CA
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Post by brygun on May 8, 2020 20:04:04 GMT -6
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 8, 2020 20:06:36 GMT -6
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Post by brygun on May 8, 2020 20:25:19 GMT -6
AAR Thunderchild
Clara stood at the table of the carrier Octavius's flag office. As a member of the Kaiser's family she was an officially an observer. Dressed in her naval style uniform her presence was a constant reminder of the lives we fought for. Her Imperial calm was as stalwart as iron. Rarely did she speak. Questions rarely asked to clarify matters on the battle table. Acute observers would note at times those observations would trigger changes in the battle plans. Things a calm mind not wrapped up in expectations can spot.
Thunderchild the only survivor of the first three Battleship Torpedo Monitors lead two conventional 12" battlecruisers and a cluster of 18 destroyers in a charge against the enemy warmarchines. Four of the great beasts each larger than the Thunderchild. At least one of the evil beasts was more than twice the mass of our valiant defender. These beasts were heading southward and unless stopped might kill Clara.
As they closed up an explosion ripped the sky. The flames lighting up the rear of Thunderchild.
Falcon, one of our support cruisers, had erupted in a magazine explosion. She was a conventional ship. Without the magazine style protection of Thunderchild and her now slain kin.
Onward they came.
The eruption of flames must have silhouted Thunderchild for the enemy war machines aimed their death guns all at her. Heat erupted from the seas and sides of Thunderchild as she charged on. Around her the destroyers were near bursting their boilers and turbines. Rapidly closing the range at the war beasts that were keeping their broadsides showing. A tactic that maximized their firepower against Thunderchild but avoid the a time consuming stern chase.
In the control room a radio operator called out, "Thunderchild is sinking".
Princess Clara stepped forward from her watching place. She placed both hands on the table to brace as she leaned over the board. Sailors moved the pieces around. She hovered over the board like never before.
Thunderchild had caused no flash fires on enemy ships in this battle. She hadn't even gotten into position to launch her torpedoes.
What would happen? Only the 12" lightly armored battle cruiser Eagle remained of the forward capital ships. She was no match for those four war machines.
"The destroyers?" Clara asked.
An air traffic controller spoke up.
"Wing Commander Klaus reports the destroyers are among the enemy. Thunderchild got them in."
On the seas what followed next was a swirling mass of waves, shells, explosions, shells, death, blood and smoke. Imperial destroyers engulfed the enemy war beasts. Their own destroyers and cruisers cut this way and that. Unfettered by the presence of the Thunderchild they duelled at close range.
Torpedoes from both sides lanced like the claws of a dozen tigers. Plumes of hits roared skyward, on their ships and ours. Destroyers battered to shambles tilted, rolled and sunk beneath the waves.
"Klaus torpedo planes joining the attack"
Clara hadn't moved from her hovering position. A map updated carefully curved his arm to move pieces around her hands. The shift showing Eagle had gone broadside to fire both her conventional turrets. Now she was turning in. Turning in as three of the four war machines had been torn opened. It was Eagle who was chasing the enemy.
Pieces were removed as the reports of their sinking came in. Fifteen of the our destroyers had been lost. Falcon was removed from the board, the sistership to Eagle that exploded suddenly in the beginning. As the map keeper moved to pick up another large piece a soft hand was laid across his own.
Clara shifted her hand to pick up the map marker for Thunderchild. Clutching it to her breast she strode from the room with a tear going down each cheek.
"Farewell Thunderchild"
Clara was safe.
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Post by brygun on May 8, 2020 20:36:05 GMT -6
Tactical Analysis of AAR Thunderchild
= Conventional cruisers don't do well in the charge the enemy role. To have the rear turret they have to avoid a lot of armor.
= Magazine protection and speed to get close. Thunderchild was only a 25 knt vessel. The damage done to her didn't cause a flash fire. This could be from the forward only turret meaning no rear turrets were being hit on the side or rear. The magazine box protection ramped up would also be contributor.
= Having a big ship, such as a big gun BC or BTM, does seem to keep the enemy staying broadside. This means fast destroyers get in among them all the sooner.
= The BTM can be sunk yet still have delayed enemy evasion and distracted guns long enough for destroyers to get into kill range.
= The battle was still very much in our favor. 18,000 ton BTM Thunderchild, 18,000 ton BC Eagle and 15 x 1,400 ish ton DD vs enemy losses of 4 BC (23,000 to 38,000 tons, estimate average 32,000 tons), a few CL and a few of their DD.
= Though disposable the BTMs charge with DDs is continuing to score very favorable victories.
= BTM did not launch its torpedoes.
= Torpedo armament on a BTM can optionally be reduced though should remain present as part of the threats for the enemy to have to deal with.
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Post by brygun on May 9, 2020 16:24:23 GMT -6
Had another data point for BTM
A night engagement with 2 new BTM. Sadly they didnt drop their torpedoes en masse. There was one fired solo not in a spread. I play in Rear Admiral mode don't have direct torpedo control. I had hoped that as a night action at close range vs enemy BB/BC they would have volleyed spreads, what with multiple 4-tube launchers per side. That didn't happen though. Stay broadside to broadside with regular BB/BC of twice their mass just got the BTM shot up.
It may be that a BM, Battleship Monitor, is valid with the T part not being all that valuable.
On Captain's mode, or with more aggressive torpedo AI, the BTM "should" blitz enemy capital ships in a short range night action.
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Post by brygun on May 11, 2020 20:55:37 GMT -6
Presenting mk 3 version of the BTM 3. Major lessons learned in using them so far: = Getting in close they take a lot of gun damage. = Coming in close they provide a means for DDs to get in at the enemy as they sail broadside. = Combined BTM and DD tactics work great. Lone BTM is just a light BC and usually outgunned. = Forward submerged torpedo never fired. Pity we can't have submarine style 6 bow tubes. = Torpedoes fired were few so total torpedoes on board reduced. = A BTM getting kills through flash fires is impressive and takes having high caliber guns. = 12" might work to cause flash fires. Enemy high level of armor of 15" at 10,000 yards or less takes a 14" gun. My navy has 15"/+1 guns so I decided to stay with those. = The DP 5" secondary and 3" tertiary also mean these are respectable HAA boats to guard formations from air attacks. = Torpedo defense dropped from 4 to 3 to save weight and most losses where to overwhelming gun fire. = Major change in armor in going from 12" magazine box (meaning 6" belt) to 12" belt with All or Nothing is experimenting with keeping speed up to close amid heavy gun fire. Most hits seen in logs were from high caliber guns not the DD guns the BE/DE was there to deal with. Suspect that the enemy BB secondaries were firing at the accompanying friendly DDs. = Retains all forward turrets since it will still be charging enemy to get into flash fire range and rear turrets wouldn't be so useful. = Production of tonnage and speed stay in balance at 18,000 tons and 27 knots. Attachments:
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geroj
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by geroj on May 12, 2020 13:49:49 GMT -6
Are you sure you are not getting flash fires and all that problems from 2" deck? Even 8" HE can destroy that. Or torpedo tubes exploding
Anyway I have new experimental design myself: Not-so-heavy crusier 5500t 30kn 2"B 1"D 2" T/TT
2x4 8" 120+ rounds 5x2 5" some AA
cost around 25000, so usually less than CL
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Post by brygun on May 13, 2020 17:51:51 GMT -6
Are you sure you are not getting flash fires and all that problems from 2" deck? Even 8" HE can destroy that. Or torpedo tubes exploding Anyway I have new experimental design myself: Not-so-heavy crusier 5500t 30kn 2"B 1"D 2" T/TT 2x4 8" 120+ rounds 5x2 5" some AA cost around 25000, so usually less than CL I was referring most of the time to the BTM creating flash fires on the enemy. There is one of the BTM that did get a flash fire. Its hard to say why. Keeping their costs down is part of their concept. In the triangle of trade offs, armor-firepower-speed, they lose on the armor. For your design: = 8" guns and up are useful in shore bombardment missions too. = They look fast enough for being an interceptor, someone hunting down raiders = There low cost makes them affordable = Bit too expensive for mass raiders like I do with the CLR but its like 3-4 CLR for 2 of those. = A tweak of tonnage up a few hundred might allow more room for dual purpose AA guns, if you have those researched = Deck torps are an option for hitting large ships however my experiments with the BTM also show its hard to get the AI to launch deck tubes from big ships. = Light armor around 2" to 3" is useful for protection from splinters and nearby explosions. It takes alot more for full armor vs 8" guns so the design has that anti-explosion armor level. Thats one of the design trade offs to keep cost down. An egg shell with 8" hammers. = Query on turret placement (A,Y) or (A,B superimposed). An all forward is a possibility. In real life the British experimented and did studies showing that in the actions they studied rear ~60 degrees only factored in rarely in most engagements. = 120 ammo on the 8" check. I find thats decent. On a shore bombardment I had the odd fail on 100 rd ammo loads if there had been some skirmishing. = Overall I like it though suggest poking around at +300 to +500 tons mostly for secondaries that can give more HAA score late game.
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