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Post by thorthemighty on Jul 4, 2020 14:41:54 GMT -6
New guy here, so I have to say that I am curious as to why there aren't above water fixed torpedo tubes in the game. Early Destroyers, like HMS Havock first commissioned into the Royal Navy had a fixed torpedo tube above water. The American Protected Cruiser Olympia also had fixed torpedo tubes above the waterline, this is also true of the Nagato class when they were first built. It would be nifty to have this feature implemented.
This leads into my next part. Designable Fast Attack Craft (FAC) such as Torpedo Boats, Gunboats, and Missile Boats; to be specific Blue Water or Ocean-Going FACs. The Royal Navy called vessels like these when they first came about in the latter half of the 1800s 1st Class Torpedo Boats, these vessels were typically small affairs with admittedly impressive range. An example of a First Class Torpedo Boat would be the German S90 Torpedo Boat class which were built from 1899 to 1907. These ships displaced 544-tonnes at full load and had a combat cruising radius depending on when the craft was built due to varying coal loads but even the ones with the shortest legs could still manage over 800-nautical miles and the longest legged ones could manage 1500-nautical miles. They had three 17in torpedo tubes on single swivel mounts with five torpedoes (three in the tubes and two reloads) and depending on the variant three 5cm guns or four 5.2cm guns; two of these boats were built with one 8.8cm gun and two 5.2cm guns. The following S135 class of Torpedo Boats were even bigger.
The Germans even managed to build a First Class Torpedo Boat during WWII that was vastly superior to the Motor Torpedo Boat, which by Royal Navy classification going on size alone would be a 2nd Class Torpedo Boat meant for coastal work. The E-Boat wasn't much bigger than a MTB or PT Boat, but unlike those craft it didn't use a planing design like modern speed boats and the MTB or PT Boats did. Instead they actually had a fairly deep draft which made them better sea boats and they were powered by three Marine Diesel Engines which gave them incredible performance capable of brief sprints in-excess of forty knots with a cruising range of over 700-nautical miles. The E-Boats had two torpedo tubes and four torpedoes, later variants had the area where the tubes were enclosed protecting the torpedoes from splinter damage and their steel-hulls made them much more durable than PT or MTBs. Its also the reason why the British built the Motor Gun Boat and the Steam Gun Boat.
Current Corvette size doesn't allow for boats below 600-tonnes. I don't this is decidedly accurate given the size of the various Torpedo Boats and even Torpedo Boat Destroyers which in the year 1900, 600-tonnes was the size of the largest Torpedo Boat Destroyers just entering service at the time. Most of them were much smaller. Hence maybe a new type of ship needs to be added, with several subtypes (Torpedo Boat, Gunboat, and later Missile Boat).
Now what effect would this have on existing ships? Well, it would give the Destroyers early on much more to do since they originally came about to actually counter these vessels. Furthermore these ships could make battles more interesting, particularly if there is a clash between them. But how does this affect the current smallest ship in the game? The Corvette.
To be completely honest, the designation of Corvette was dead by 1900 at least in a modern sense; indeed the idea of the Corvette wasn't revived until the 1930s as a cheap, quick and easy to build convoy escort in the same vein as the Destroyer Escort. Resulting in the Flower, Bathurst, and Castle classes. So its curious to see them here, to be totally honest, I am thinking that they should be replaced the FAC and maybe implemented as a unique national ship for Great Britain alongside the Admiralty Trawler and Admiralty Drifter, yes, the Royal Navy did actually have purpose built Naval Trawlers and Drifters.
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Post by nobody on Jul 4, 2020 16:08:13 GMT -6
The E-Boats had two torpedo tubes and four torpedoes, later variants had the area where the tubes were enclosed protecting the torpedoes from splinter damage and their steel-hulls made them much more durable than PT or MTBs. The "S-Boote" (literally quick or fast boats)(only the Brits called them "E" for "enemy") actually had wooden hulls with metal framing and sometimes armor in certain places. Sometimes this is called composite construction. The (West-)German navy continued to build wooden S-boats until 1982 and operated them until 2016. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 4, 2020 16:47:54 GMT -6
My comments should not be interpreted to mean I think you are wrong. This is a PC computer game. It is not a Naval War College game conducted on Cray computers, so think simple. I agree that there are some details that might be nice but I also understand about the complexity of designing programs. I've done it for avionics testing in the government. That aside.
The difference between a corvette and a US destroyer escort is not much. The Flower class corvettes were about 925 tons; and there was an update to them and when war started, the weight went up. They were used by numerous nations including the US as US Coast Guard Patrol boats. Our Buckley class DE's were about 1400 tons. There was also the Cannon- class at 1240 tons. There as many as seven different US Navy classes of DE's built before 1955. They ranged from 1140 tons to 1400 tons. They had the same missions, used the same weaponry with a few updates, and similar speeds.
But, what's in a name. We now use the term frigates, which dates back to the Age of Sail. Should the team add some more ship types, well maybe but I personally believe that the added expense and complication is not really necessary.
Now as to PT boats, MTB's and E-boats. Those boats are generally effective in enclosed seas, narrows seas etc. Examples are the English Channel, Mediterranean, the Solomon Islands specifically the Slot, the Baltic and the Sea of Japan and the Yellow Sea. We could add the South China Sea and the passage between Formosa and China along with the Black Sea. But they are specifically coastal boats and do not handle well in rough seas, despite what German's might tell you.
Now could those boats be added? Yes, maybe those should be optional at the beginning of the game for Italy, Japan, Germany and Russia in the Baltic and Black Seas.
Anyway, your ideas are well founded but keep in mind, this is a PC game. Keep up the good ideas.
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Post by thorthemighty on Jul 4, 2020 17:13:41 GMT -6
My comments should not be interpreted to mean I think you are wrong. This is a PC computer game. It is not a Naval War College game conducted on Cray computers, so think simple. I agree that there are some details that might be nice but I also understand about the complexity of designing programs. I've done it for avionics testing in the government. That aside. The difference between a corvette and a US destroyer escort is not much. The Flower class corvettes were about 925 tons; and there was an update to them and when war started, the weight went up. They were used by numerous nations including the US as US Coast Guard Patrol boats. Our Buckley class DE's were about 1400 tons. There was also the Cannon- class at 1240 tons. There as many as seven different US Navy classes of DE's built before 1955. They ranged from 1140 tons to 1400 tons. They had the same missions, used the same weaponry with a few updates, and similar speeds. But, what's in a name. We now use the term frigates, which dates back to the Age of Sail. Should the team add some more ship types, well maybe but I personally believe that the added expense and complication is not really necessary. Now as to PT boats, MTB's and E-boats. Those boats are generally effective in enclosed seas, narrows seas etc. Examples are the English Channel, Mediterranean, the Solomon Islands specifically the Slot, the Baltic and the Sea of Japan and the Yellow Sea. We could add the South China Sea and the passage between Formosa and China along with the Black Sea. But they are specifically coastal boats and do not handle well in rough seas, despite what German's might tell you. Now could those boats be added? Yes, maybe those should be optional at the beginning of the game for Italy, Japan, Germany and Russia in the Baltic and Black Seas. Anyway, your ideas are well founded but keep in mind, this is a PC game. Keep up the good ideas. Thanks was trying to add more variety to the game. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 4, 2020 17:17:30 GMT -6
My comments should not be interpreted to mean I think you are wrong. This is a PC computer game. It is not a Naval War College game conducted on Cray computers, so think simple. I agree that there are some details that might be nice but I also understand about the complexity of designing programs. I've done it for avionics testing in the government. That aside. The difference between a corvette and a US destroyer escort is not much. The Flower class corvettes were about 925 tons; and there was an update to them and when war started, the weight went up. They were used by numerous nations including the US as US Coast Guard Patrol boats. Our Buckley class DE's were about 1400 tons. There was also the Cannon- class at 1240 tons. There as many as seven different US Navy classes of DE's built before 1955. They ranged from 1140 tons to 1400 tons. They had the same missions, used the same weaponry with a few updates, and similar speeds. But, what's in a name. We now use the term frigates, which dates back to the Age of Sail. Should the team add some more ship types, well maybe but I personally believe that the added expense and complication is not really necessary. Now as to PT boats, MTB's and E-boats. Those boats are generally effective in enclosed seas, narrows seas etc. Examples are the English Channel, Mediterranean, the Solomon Islands specifically the Slot, the Baltic and the Sea of Japan and the Yellow Sea. We could add the South China Sea and the passage between Formosa and China along with the Black Sea. But they are specifically coastal boats and do not handle well in rough seas, despite what German's might tell you. Now could those boats be added? Yes, maybe those should be optional at the beginning of the game for Italy, Japan, Germany and Russia in the Baltic and Black Seas. Anyway, your ideas are well founded but keep in mind, this is a PC game. Keep up the good ideas. Thanks was trying to add more variety to the game. You should continue to offer up ideas, to improve the game. We all should. I am certain that the team appreciates our attempts add variety to the game. |
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Post by stevethecat on Jul 5, 2020 10:00:59 GMT -6
It wasn't just early destroyers that had fixed above water tubes, some British capital ships did too. HMS Hood had 5 fixed above water tubes on each side, plus quite a few older designs had them as well.
As for their attributes if added? Make them the same as below water tubes but with risks of fire instead of flooding if hit and with the speed limit for launching removed.
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Post by thorthemighty on Jul 5, 2020 10:06:50 GMT -6
It wasn't just early destroyers that had fixed above water tubes, some British capital ships did too. HMS Hood had 5 fixed above water tubes on each side, plus quite a few older designs had them as well. As for their attributes if added? Make them the same as below water tubes but with risks of fire instead of flooding if hit and with the speed limit for launching removed. Or if they are Oxygen torpedoes, outright exploding. But yeah, that sounds about right. |
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Post by wlbjork on Jul 6, 2020 3:32:23 GMT -6
It wasn't just early destroyers that had fixed above water tubes, some British capital ships did too. HMS Hood had 5 fixed above water tubes on each side, plus quite a few older designs had them as well. As for their attributes if added? Make them the same as below water tubes but with risks of fire instead of flooding if hit and with the speed limit for launching removed. Also, like casemated guns, they cannot be used if the sea state is too rough due to risk of damage to the torpedo as it leaves the tube. Smaller craft is a great idea in principle, but I feel it would be better suited to it's own game due to an absence of sub-2" weapons. |
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Post by thorthemighty on Jul 6, 2020 9:15:33 GMT -6
It wasn't just early destroyers that had fixed above water tubes, some British capital ships did too. HMS Hood had 5 fixed above water tubes on each side, plus quite a few older designs had them as well. As for their attributes if added? Make them the same as below water tubes but with risks of fire instead of flooding if hit and with the speed limit for launching removed. Also, like casemated guns, they cannot be used if the sea state is too rough due to risk of damage to the torpedo as it leaves the tube. Smaller craft is a great idea in principle, but I feel it would be better suited to it's own game due to an absence of sub-2" weapons. Many torpedo boats actually mounted around a 2in gun, the 88mm gun that some ***** Torpedo Boats mounted is like a 3.46in gun while British Torpedo Boats, at least sea-going ones would typically mount a 3-pounder which is a 47mm weapon or roughly 1.9in gun; which is basically as close as you can get using the pounder-system to a 2in or 50mm weapon without going into decimals. British MTGs typically carried a 57mm weapon which is roughly a 2.2in gun. The Steam Gun Boat which was around the size of the largest MTBs mounted a single 3in gun. The Americans made a quite nasty PT Gunboat configuration with no torpedoes but two 40mm Bofors and six twin .50-caliber machine gun mounts for a total of twelve. |
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Post by wlbjork on Jul 6, 2020 13:28:40 GMT -6
Not sure any S-boots mounted the 8.8cm gun, typically they carried 37mm/40mm and 20mm guns. Various Flak-ships were so equipped though.
Likewise, whilst Fairmile D in MGB configuration mounted 6 pdrs (57mm) guns in A and Y mounts, they tended to mount a twin 20mm in Q position, in at least one case two more single 20mm Oerlikons in the midships wing positions, as well as a several Lewis guns (later upgraded to Vickers 'K' Guns, properly known as the Vickers G.O Machinegun) in .303 calibre.
British Vosper 73' design was a twin 20mm forward and a pair of .50cal Vickers aft also backed up by a couple of Lewis/Vickers .303s
The Soviet G-5 was the fastest of them all, at 53 knots - but armament was pretty light - no more than a couple of DShK machineguns in .50 calibre.
Hence my point that to address such nuances would take a new game rather than trying to shoe-horn them into an environment that doesn't really suit.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 6, 2020 13:37:25 GMT -6
Not sure any S-boots mounted the 8.8cm gun, typically they carried 37mm/40mm and 20mm guns. Various Flak-ships were so equipped though. Likewise, whilst Fairmile D in MGB configuration mounted 6 pdrs (57mm) guns in A and Y mounts, they tended to mount a twin 20mm in Q position, in at least one case two more single 20mm Oerlikons in the midships wing positions, as well as a several Lewis guns (later upgraded to Vickers 'K' Guns, properly known as the Vickers G.O Machinegun) in .303 calibre. British Vosper 73' design was a twin 20mm forward and a pair of .50cal Vickers aft also backed up by a couple of Lewis/Vickers .303s The Soviet G-5 was the fastest of them all, at 53 knots - but armament was pretty light - no more than a couple of DShK machineguns in .50 calibre. Hence my point that to address such nuances would take a new game rather than trying to shoe-horn them into an environment that doesn't really suit. Here, read this. WarshipProfile27-SMTorpedoBoatB110.pdf (4.54 MB) |
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Post by aeson on Jul 6, 2020 14:03:44 GMT -6
Not sure any S-boots mounted the 8.8cm gun, typically they carried 37mm/40mm and 20mm guns. Various Flak-ships were so equipped though. thorthemighty cited the First World War-era S90 class as an example of a torpedo boat in the original post, so there may be a communication issue here since he or she is talking about "***** torpedo boats" whereas you're specifically referring to schnellbootes.
Of course, S90 and similar torpedo boats really aren't the same kind of torpedo boats as schnellbootes (S-boot/S-boat, E-boat), motoscafo armato silurante (MAS, E-boat), motor torpedo boats (MTB), patrol torpedo boats (PT boat), and other similar vessels; they have far more in common with contemporary torpedo boat destroyers, especially as the two types tended to converge in capability as they grew in size, and both the turn-of-the-century torpedo boat and the contemporary torpedo boat destroyer are the evolutionary ancestors of the 'modern' destroyers of the First and Second World Wars.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jul 6, 2020 14:51:15 GMT -6
Not sure any S-boots mounted the 8.8cm gun, typically they carried 37mm/40mm and 20mm guns. Various Flak-ships were so equipped though. thorthemighty cited the First World War-era S90 class as an example of a torpedo boat in the original post, so there may be a communication issue here since he or she is talking about "***** torpedo boats" whereas you're specifically referring to schnellbootes.
Of course, S90 and similar torpedo boats really aren't the same kind of torpedo boats as schnellbootes (S-boot/S-boat, E-boat), motoscafo armato silurante (MAS, E-boat), motor torpedo boats (MTB), patrol torpedo boats (PT boat), and other similar vessels; they have far more in common with contemporary torpedo boat destroyers, especially as the two types tended to converge in capability as they grew in size, and both the turn-of-the-century torpedo boat and the contemporary torpedo boat destroyer are the evolutionary ancestors of the 'modern' destroyers of the First and Second World Wars.
I substituted another book for that time period. |
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Post by wlbjork on Jul 7, 2020 5:35:00 GMT -6
My mistake, I didn't read the OP as carefully as I should. Factor in I've been reading up on Cruel Seas ( store.warlordgames.com/collections/cruel-seas/products/cruel-seas-starter-set) and I'm never going to be on the planet  ! I can see the desire for smaller ships, but the issue is that we already can't replicate historical fleet sizes with current game limitations anyway. I feel that adding more ships will simply dilute attention from other aspects. Additionally, many things in game are heavier than in real life, making it difficult to replicate smaller warships - try replicating the Daring/Havock/Ferret class TBDs of the early 1890s for example. With regards to the KE designation, in game it's a catch-all term for small warships not mounting torpedoes. Sloops, Frigates, Minesweepers, even large gunboats such as the Insect Class as well as the Corvette are covered by this designation. Also, the 600t minimum is for non-peacetime ships - you can build smaller ships in wartime. |
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