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Post by hschuster44 on Sept 17, 2015 15:53:39 GMT -6
.... On the other hand in order to move the start date to 1895 or even to 1890 would require much less effort as all the mechanics needed are already in place. Cutting on starting techs a little bit for all nations as well as slowing reasearch rate till 1900, adjusting budgets slightly, couple new classes of ships (monitor, ironclad, maybe some sort of commerce raider steamer) and we're done. That's the feature I'd like to see implemented, not sure if anyone shares my enthusiasm. I agree!
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Post by cwemyss on Sept 17, 2015 20:36:24 GMT -6
Global situation was quite a bit different in 1890 than in 1900... The world's soon-to-be-biggest economy hadn't started flexing it's muscles yet. There'd be a lot of irrelevant Spanish possessions around the world, and a lot less US.
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Post by tmp on Sept 17, 2015 22:08:32 GMT -6
A good reason to turn Spain from optional custom country into one of regular world players, then, if it's to happen. And the US starting smaller doesn't exactly seem like a bad thing.
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Post by sabratha on Sept 18, 2015 3:52:27 GMT -6
What is it about "1900-1925" that people don't get? This is a game about fleets in the dreadnought (and late pre-dreadnought) era (basically an alternate-WW1 era). Its a good thing that the 1925 ending date is flexible so players can finish wars or see building programs completed, but its really a stretch to continue to 1940, let alone into the atomic age (1950). It seems to me that the whole scale, research dynamic, and enemy AI would have to radically change for this game to be extended much past 1925 and retain a semblance of historical accuracy. I'd support some minor changes in RTW itself to simulate the beginnings of useful aviation and better radio communications after about 1915-20 or so. But if you want to go to 1950 - into an era with acoustic torpedoes, guided missiles, jets, and carrier-oriented fleets, etc., it's probably better to have a RTW2 that starts in 1930 better optimized for the introduction of really effective aircraft, A/C carriers, radars, sonars, radio communications, aerial bombs, various guided weapons, etc. A connection between the two games might be to allow players to directly import their 1930 fleets from RTW1, rather than whatever legacy fleet the game created for them. Yeah I agree. While I think the game could be extended to start from let's say 1890 (although the engine seems to have some bugs with pre-1900 dates iirc) without introducing drastic changes to the mechanics or new gameplay mechanisms, but extending it beyond 1925 is far less straightforward. I think the ability not to end the game in 1925 is nice, as you can end some ongoing wars etc, but going far beyond 1930 does not make a whole lot of sense, without introducing a ton of new rules, radar, aircraft and whatnot. An RTW2 expansion would seem a more decent idea, or a standalone game that you use to continue your RTW1 game (something like importing your Crusader Kings save to Europa universalis).
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Post by gazomierz on Sept 18, 2015 8:22:28 GMT -6
I had been away for a couple of days. I'm glad to see my suggestion was met with such interest. I simplified things in my last post as I wasn't sure if anyone else would also like to see start date moved back in time. So please allow me to elaborate a little. I proposed 1895 or 1890 as realistic dates to wich the game could be stretched without much trouble. Going further back, to 1875 or so, as some of you suggested would be much harder I think. The ships strongly differed from what we have in game. The sailing ships were still playing much bigger role and as already pointed out the global situation was a lot different, except maybe GB dominating the seas, that one seemed to stick for a long time . US wasn't even close to it's industrial potential 25 years later, Japan was at the beginning of the industrialization and the army and social reforms just started. And as much as I would love to see game start in 1875 or so it would require too much work and effort for just an update. More and more we go back in time the more difficult it becomes. There would be need for total rework of the tech trees, introducing double what we have now. That would require a lot of research, not to mention implementing it into the game later on. The economic model should be reworked in order to work realisticly and reflect the rapid growth and industralization. Slowing later on to not create completly crazy and unrealistic situations. New classes of ships would have to be introduced, and differing from each other, just to make game interesting. Problem of sailing ships could be solved by making them subs-like. No direct control, just commerce warfare or let's say patrol duties but it's not really optimal. In general also a lot of thought, research and effort. That's expansion material I believe. I would pay for smth like this if that happens for sure. Same way as I would pay for WWII expansion Back to 1895/1890. The way I see it done. New classes of ships I proposed mainly to make it possible to include some of them in the lagacy fleet as I don't think anyone sane would build them if newer designs are available. I admit that's the harderst part to introduce correctly, and I'm not sure how to do this. But it's not really needed I think, we could stick with what we already have. It would be nice addition but not required in my opinion. Technology. I think putting 2 or 3 new techs at the beggining of each tree would suffice. Not every tech tree must be extended this way, some of them could be blocked till 1900 or have just "empty" techs to give research teams smth to work on while waiting for the XXth century to kick in. Generally I think giving all nations some extra minuses to parts weight, ROF and such on the begining of the game and the new techs will just improve your situation. For example let's say you start with extra -30% to ROF. We have 3 new techs each cutting it by 10% to the point we begin now. Your teams have smth to work on, and while we hit 1898 or 1899 i don't mind some techs coming a little sooner. It's alternate history game anyways Not sure if that's possible as I don't know how the game is structered, but I believe it shouldn't be much of an issue. Global situation wasn't that much different. US still have the rapid growth bonus, Japan still get undeveloped shipyards, Great Britain still domninate the seas, Frenchmen still drink wine and eat cheese and so on. Adjusting budgets slighlty and changing some possesions is something we all can do creating custom nations so we know it is possible without much trouble. The only problem I see here is just tweaking the numbers till it feels right. That's the way I see it. Would love to see your comments and opinions on the matter. Also would really like a comment from one of the devs, as the decision is up to them. I must admit I got myself a little hyped over the idea. So maybe I need to be put in place
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Post by hschuster44 on Sept 18, 2015 9:35:51 GMT -6
... Global situation wasn't that much different. US still have the rapid growth bonus, Japan still get undeveloped shipyards, Great Britain still domninate the seas, Frenchmen still drink wine and eat cheese and so on. Adjusting budgets slighlty and changing some possesions is something we all can do creating custom nations so we know it is possible without much trouble. The only problem I see here is just tweaking the numbers till it feels right. ... Apart from the dreams of young Kaiser Wilhelm II. and compared to the situation in 1900 Germany was different in 1890: Copy and paste mentality, no Flottengesetz, strong focus on coastal defence. But that should not be impossible to handle within RTW.
Jumping back to the other end of the current time frame I'd like to see the possibility to research, build and use seaplane tenders between 1915 and 1925, giving the option or a better chance to avoid an unfavourable balance of power in battle situations. CLs that can be reconstructed accordingly (see former CL SMS Stuttgart!) might be an alternative. The rest (CVs etc.) is modern hellish stuff that has no business in RTW from my point of view.
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Post by gazomierz on Sept 18, 2015 10:26:35 GMT -6
... Global situation wasn't that much different. US still have the rapid growth bonus, Japan still get undeveloped shipyards, Great Britain still domninate the seas, Frenchmen still drink wine and eat cheese and so on. Adjusting budgets slighlty and changing some possesions is something we all can do creating custom nations so we know it is possible without much trouble. The only problem I see here is just tweaking the numbers till it feels right. ... Apart from the dreams of young Kaiser Wilhelm II. and compared to the situation in 1900 Germany was different in 1890: Copy and paste mentality, no Flottengesetz, strong focus on coastal defence. But that should not be impossible to handle within RTW.
Jumping back to the other end of the current time frame I'd like to see the possibility to research, build and use seaplane tenders between 1915 and 1925, giving the option or a better chance to avoid an unfavourable balance of power in battle situations. CLs that can be reconstructed accordingly (see former CL SMS Stuttgart!) might be an alternative. The rest (CVs etc.) is modern hellish stuff that has no business in RTW from my point of view.
That is entirely true from the historical point of view. But i don't think it really applies ingame as we are allowed to design our own legacy fleets, and even if it's on auto it's more or less just random. So in a way you decide on your past doctrine or let the computer do it for you. You ,Sir, have my full support! Seaplanes are something I'd like to see very much. Balloons would also be very cool addition, you could deploy them to spot for the fleet in similar way. If we go even further they could be deployed in battle and be hauled by ships, giving little bonuses as increased spotting range or more accurate fire. They could be shot down of course, giving seaplanes extra purpose. I wouldn't mind all of that happening outside of battle or in form of pop-up messages.
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Post by sabratha on Sept 18, 2015 11:54:56 GMT -6
Well, I think seaplanes and zeppelins can be abstracted same was as mines and subs are now. You could build seaplane tenders and it would give you more "spotting" in a region, possibly also random events like subs now have "There's been an air raid on the port, ship X got damaged and will be repaired for Y months" or "A zeppellin helped locate and destroy a submarine, sub X was sunk" etc.
I think it can all be reasonably abstratced by the game's event engine as far as late ww1 and early 20s planes go.
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Post by hschuster44 on Sept 18, 2015 16:17:27 GMT -6
... Back to 1895/1890. The way I see it done. New classes of ships I proposed mainly to make it possible to include some of them in the lagacy fleet as I don't think anyone sane would build them if newer designs are available. I admit that's the harderst part to introduce correctly, and I'm not sure how to do this. But it's not really needed I think, we could stick with what we already have. It would be nice addition but not required in my opinion. Let's take a practical example and imagine one would try to build a German legacy fleet as per January 1890. Thanks to SAI, RJW and some weird guy, let's call him Herman the German, we already had the following (historic and contemporary) classes:
B Brandenburg (1890) Coastal defence ship Siegfried class (1888) CA Kaiserin Augusta class (1890) CL Irene class (1886) CL Bussard class (1890) and a few more historic classes for the following years (e.g. CL Gefion, Hela, Gazelle etc.).
On first sight that would seem to be not too bad as a start for 1890, since we could use some contemporary designs that were outdated but still in service 10 years later. So in a way we are already in the 1890ies in current RTW and we probably should have a similar situation for some elderly ship classes of other nations. But the problem is that - starting in 1890 - we would consequently need some even older outdated 1880 designs or classes that were still in service in 1890 (e.g. torpedo gunboats/ torpedo cruisers, avisos, various sorts of armored warships, see SMS Blitz, Oldenburg etc ...). However it might be possible to design such ships do-it-yourself within available classes (CL, CA etc.) if the design option would be flexible enough when it comes to displacement, speed etc.
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Post by akmatov on Oct 27, 2015 20:41:34 GMT -6
Totally support idea of starting date going back to around 1880. Huge amount of technical change and would be a GREAT game. Also time period would be one where a war between UK and France would be very possible.
Just checked and the British Royal Sovereigns, laid down 1889, were the classic ships that set the template for 'pre-dreadnought battleship'. However, the Canopus-class battleship, laid down 1896, were the first British ships with Krupp Cemented armour. So, I modify my request to rolling back RTW to just 1895 which should be easy, I think. A small change, but one that lets us experiment with pre-dreadnought ships a bit more. By only going back to 1895 the developers avoid messing with Harvey and compound armour. A small change, but one that lets us experiment with pre-dreadnought ships a bit more. Would like to see a war between Britain and France with pre-dreadnoughts triggered by the Fashoda Incident. The French mobilized their fleet. Have the Brits mobilized theirs also, things might have gotten interesting.
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Post by bshaftoe on Oct 28, 2015 5:07:24 GMT -6
Global situation was quite a bit different in 1890 than in 1900... The world's soon-to-be-biggest economy hadn't started flexing it's muscles yet. There'd be a lot of irrelevant Spanish possessions around the world, and a lot less US. Spanish would have the same possesions they have as when the current scenario starts. Cuba, Philippines, and some islands in the Pacific (that oddly enough, in theory, are still spanish, because they weren't even considered in the Treaty of Paris, AFAIK).
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Post by absurdist on Dec 27, 2015 22:27:14 GMT -6
Likewise Zoomer, just because you are not interested doesn't negate what others like or want to do, so you can explain, but a condescending attitude is not needed.
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Post by director on Dec 29, 2015 17:33:54 GMT -6
I'd be willing to pay for an expansion that moved the start date back to 1890; 1895 is only a 5-year gain and aside from the Spanish-American War doesn't gain you much. I would like more time to work with pre-dreadnoughts; now it feels like I'm just waiting for wing-turrets to become available.
I agree that being able to use seaplanes, land-based planes and/or zeppelins for scouts would be simply wonderful. Buy the assets, let the AI run them, I think. And be able to research the techs for building a seaplane tender/carrier.
Navies didn't develop a doctrine calling for massed aircraft strikes until when, late 1920's? 1930? Strikes by 5 to 10 aircraft should be feasible without much change in game mechanics - treat them as a sort of very fast torpedo boat - but you would have to include techs for anti-aircraft weapons and allow them to shoot at nearby planes.
None of this sounds like too much of a stretch for the game mechanics (though I haven't obviously seen the code) but would require a very large amount of effort and time.
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