What determines a BC or BB?

[hawkeye]

So I'm in this game as Chin China, it's 1921 and the game won't let me design a BC with a top-speed of less than 28 knots.

The problem, however, is that this is a 10% research rate game and there is no way I can design a viable BC with that speed at this time (I just stole unlocked 3-centerline-turrets and don't have steam turbines yet)

So my guess would be, that it is purely the year the game is in with no consideration given to the research rate the game is running.
Is this true?

[spacenerd4]

Yes.

[aeson]

Belt armor thickness and main battery configuration can also affect whether a ship is classified as a battleship or a battlecruiser. For example:

A legal 23kn battlecruiser in 1936.

[tbr]

After 1916 or so the game accepts capital ships with heavy guns and slower than 31kn only as BC when the belt armor is less than 12.5 inch. Then it only needs to be faster than 22kn.

For heavy guns there are also the Graf Spee and the like exceptions allowing 11inch and heavier guns (in a limited number) on CA's.

[hawkeye]

Armor: 10.5"
Guns: 13"
Speed: 25 knots

Still not accepted as a BC

[DeMatt]

Aug 26, 2020 0:44:22 GMT -6 hawkeye said:

Armor: 10.5"
Guns: 13"
Speed: 25 knots

Still not accepted as a BC

Comparing that with aeson's example, I think that your ship is not being classed as a BC because it has three centerline turrets. Drop to two turrets (AY) and it should be accepted as a BC.

Alternatively, you could accept that your BC is going to be outclassed by enemy BCs, and build it to overwhelm enemy CAs instead - 12" guns, thinner armor, fewer secondaries, but enough speed to catch said CAs before they can run.

[hawkeye]

Ok, removing one turret allows the ship to be classed as a BC.

So here is the big question:
What's the reasoning behind this rule, because, for me at least, this rule makes absolutely ZERO sense.

I get the speed requirement to qualify as a BC (Suggestion: Make the trigger unlocked/completed technology. Example: After the first capital ship with steam turbine engines is completed, the speed requirement for BCs goes up) but number of turrets?

So I can build a BB of 27,000 tons, 23 knots, 12 inches of belt- and 12.5 inches of turret armor, 4 x twin 12" turrets and 16 x 5" secondaries. But if I am willing to sacrifice most of that armor (7" belt-, 8" turret armor) for a BC with 26 knots, the game wont let me?
Isn't that the whole concept of a BC, sacrificing armor for more speed?

And before anyone says it, yes, there were plenty of BC who sacrificed some firepower for more speed but as a hard rule, this makes no sense whatsoever.


Anyway, the riddle has been solved and I guess I have just to live with this - I guess I'll make a separate suggestion post about this.

[aeson]

Aug 26, 2020 6:03:00 GMT -6 hawkeye said:

Ok, removing one turret allows the ship to be classed as a BC.

So here is the big question:
What's the reasoning behind this rule, because, for me at least, this rule makes absolutely ZERO sense.

Most likely, what's happening is that it's meeting the criteria to qualify as a Tsukuba-type battlecruiser while failing to meet the criteria to qualify as some other type of capital ship - it only has two turrets so it's not a conventional dreadnought battleship and it has fewer than eight guns so it's not a Dunkerque-/Richelieu-/Gascogne-type battleship, but it also has at most 12" of belt armor so it's not qualifying as a battleship by virtue of heavy armor, it's faster than 22 knots so it's not a predreadnought or semidreadnought battleship or a slow-Tsukuba-type CA, it has more than three guns at 23 knots or one gun at 24+ knots so it's not a fast-Tsukuba-type CA, and it's bigger than 12,000 tons so it's not any of the Deutschland-type CAs.

[zoomar]

I noticed that this is a 1921 design, right? It might be that you need to add a knot of speed. The British Queen Elizabeth class of WW1 was technically capable of 25kts and was a battleship. It could be that the game considers 25 kts the cutoff between BB and BC classification in 1920, which is actually the criteria the RN used when classifying ships as battlecruisers. It may also be this changes as the date changes. When designing ships in the 1940's Ive sometimes had a heck of a time getting a 40,000 ton 29kt ship under 30 kts classified as a battlecruiser.

[hawkeye]

Aug 28, 2020 12:25:31 GMT -6 zoomar said:

I noticed that this is a 1921 design, right? It might be that you need to add a knot of speed. The British Queen Elizabeth class of WW1 was technically capable of 25kts and was a battleship. It could be that the game considers 25 kts the cutoff between BB and BC classification in 1920, which is actually the criteria the RN used when classifying ships as battlecruisers. It may also be this changes as the date changes. When designing ships in the 1940's Ive sometimes had a heck of a time getting a 40,000 ton 29kt ship under 30 kts classified as a battlecruiser.

1921, yes.
With three turrets the design needs to go 28 knots to qualify as a BC, while 25 are enough if I remove one and go with only two turrets.

The two things I have most problems with are those:

1. I can see no reason for a ship like the one  posted to be considered a BB if it carries three twin-turrets, but a BC when it only carries two

2. All those requirements of speed, armor and so on for a BC to qualify as a BC are tied to the year.
When the game offers options to put research rate down to 10%, this makes zero sense.


I have looked at some of the AI designs and they are the personification of glass-cannons.

BCs with 6 inches of armor and BBs with less than 10 inches - because while it is 1921, the engine technology would be fitting for 1905 in a 100% research game and the AI apparently desperately tries to get the speeds that BCs/BBs should have in that time-frame in a 100% research game.

[brygun]

What determines a BC or BB?

BC is a time period from the western christian cultures for Before Christ while BB is a much more ancient evolutionary time period Before Boobies.