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Post by palpatine on Mar 28, 2021 2:16:37 GMT -6
Hrmm. Maybe we need a pinned general Q&A thread... Anyways: That's a good idea. A pinned Q&A thread is quite common on complex games boards. Thanks for all the answers guys. I guess my short-legged home fleet plan wasn't that great after all. Also, I am now quite weary of varied techs a s the game does not provide very much insight on if a tech is developped with historical accuracy or not. Well, that's realistic and a blast, but maybe not for a new comer at the moment.
I've got another one regarding techs: - All modifiers (like hydraulics, shell quality...) do apply by themselves? No need to refit? I only need to do that when new components (like fire control, engines...) are developped?
And this one : - What unlocks BC and BB ?
Thanks!
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Post by cheatereater on Mar 28, 2021 3:50:25 GMT -6
I've got another one regarding techs: - All modifiers (like hydraulics, shell quality...) do apply by themselves? No need to refit? I only need to do that when new components (like fire control, engines...) are developped?
And this one : - What unlocks BC and BB ?
Thanks!
I believe that the "gradual improvements" are applied when it comes to fire control, shells, turret ROF and damage control. Torpedoes are automagically upgraded. It is not applied to armor (even though it gives "gradual improvement"), machinery and hulls, although machinery can be rebuilt. I am unsure about a few specific things like reduction gears.
A BB is like a B with at least three main gun (10"+) turrets (not necessarily centreline). So you could have 3 centreline turret tech or main battery wing turret tech. A BC is basically a faster BB, and exactly where the cutoff is changes with year.
*edit* I will throw out one of my own on the experience system. For ships there is poor-fair-good-elite, with mothballed ships at poor, reserve at fair and active at good eventually. How much training time does it take for a ship to get to good after being activated?
Similar for aircraft, there is veteran and expert status, but it's unclear which is higher or lower. Also, how does aircraft experience work in peacetime, when a ship/airbase is mothballed/reserve or active? How does the general reserve work? How does the changing numbers of aircraft when an airbase is reserved affect experience and readiness?
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Post by anoniemuis on Mar 28, 2021 6:27:50 GMT -6
- Is there a "rule of thumb" for armor? I mean : a quick conversion rule of "your armor should be this factor related to that type of gun". I know that distance and so much rules do have an impact, but that's just to get an idea for as long as my personal experience is close to zero.
It might not be a rule of thumb but this is how i armor my ships.
Pc = protected cruiser, Sd = sloped deck, AoN = flat deck on top of belt b = belt, be = belt extended, d = deck, ct = conning tower, t = turrets, tt = turret top, sec = secondaries
BB's early game: Sd b = max own pen rounded up, be = 3" to protect against 6" Ap and high caliber He, d = 3" to protect against high caliber He, ct = t, t = b + 1" to 2", tt = 3" and sec 2" to protect against splinters. BB's mid game cheap: AoN b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, d = 3", ct = t, t = gun call + 1", tt max pen at max range rounded up and sec = 2". BB's mid game expensive: Sd b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, be = 3", d = max own pen rounded up - b, ct = t, t = max pen rounded up, tt = max range pen own guns rounded up and sec = 2". BB's late game cheap: AoN b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, d = own pen at 20.000 rounded up, ct = t, t = gun call + 1", tt = max pen at max range rounded up and sec = 2". BB's late game expensive: Sd b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, be = 3", d = 7,5", ct = t, t = gun call + 1" to 2", tt = 7,5" and sec = 2".
Bc's early game: Sd b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, be = 3", d = 3", ct = t, t = b + 1" to 2", tt = 3" and sec 2". Bc's mid game: AoN b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, d = own pen at 20.000 rounded up, ct = t, t = b + 1" to 2", tt = = max pen at max range rounded up and sec 2". Bc's late game cheap: AoN b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, d = own pen at 20.000 rounded up, ct = t, t = gun call + 1" to 2", tt = = 7,5" and sec 2". Bc's late game expensive: AoN b = own pen at 10.000 rounded up, d = 7,5", ct = t, t = gun call + 1" to 2", tt = = 7,5" and sec 2".
B's: Sd b + be = amount of pen of your own guns + 1", d = 3", ct = t, t = b + 1" to 2", tt = 3" and sec 2".
Ca's early game: Sd b + be = same as B, d = 2", ct = t, t = b + 1", tt = 3" and sec = 2". Ca's mid/late game cheap: AoN b max, d = 3" ct = t, t = max pen own guns or just 10", tt = 3" and sec = 2". Ca's mid/late game expensive: Sd b + be max, d = 3" ct = t, t = max pen own guns or just 10", tt = 3" and sec = 2".
Cl's early game: Pc b max, d = 2", ct = t, t = 3 and tt = 2". Cl's mid/late game: AoN b max, d + 2" ct = t, t = max pen own guns and tt = 3".
I hope i have covered it all with this. But keep in mind, this is a general rule for me. I might deviate from it due to tonnage and cost constraints.
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Post by aeson on Mar 28, 2021 10:08:45 GMT -6
- What unlocks BC and BB ? You can begin to build ships with the BC classification as soon as you have at least two levels in the Ship Design research area, though in order to build battlecruisers as soon as Ship Design 2 is reached you will most likely need to build a ship that looks like a predreadnought battleship with a design speed of at least 23 knots, as dreadnought configurations are most likely not available with only two technologies developed in the Ship Design research area.
The BB classification is not technically unlocked by anything in the game as a quirk of the game's classification system allows conventional predreadnought-type battleships to be classified as BBs as long as they fulfill certain conditions, but if you want to build true dreadnoughts you need to have at least one of the N Centerline Turrets technologies or Main Battery Wing Turrets as cheatereater suggested. Ships with 3+ 10" turrets can be classified as Bs rather than BBs:
I am in fact uncertain that there is a ship configuration using 10" guns which would be classified as a BB; I think an 11" or heavier main battery is a necessary condition for a ship to be classified as a BB within the game. That said, I cannot say that I've ever seriously attempted to get a ship armed with 10" or lighter guns to be classified as a BB, so maybe there's a quirk of the classification system which would allow it.
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Post by captaintrek on Mar 28, 2021 10:10:09 GMT -6
Similar for aircraft, there is veteran and expert status, but it's unclear which is higher or lower. Also, how does aircraft experience work in peacetime, when a ship/airbase is mothballed/reserve or active? How does the general reserve work? How does the changing numbers of aircraft when an airbase is reserved affect experience and readiness?
Expert is the highest. You can tell because if you use elite pilot training, carriers on active fleet will see all their squadrons reach Veteran, and a handful will tend to then become Expert after a highly successful battle.
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Post by cheatereater on Mar 28, 2021 10:18:45 GMT -6
- What unlocks BC and BB ? You can begin to build ships with the BC classification as soon as you have at least two levels in the Ship Design research area, though in order to build battlecruisers as soon as Ship Design 2 is reached you will most likely need to build a ship that looks like a predreadnought battleship with a design speed of at least 23 knots, as dreadnought configurations are most likely not available with only two technologies developed in the Ship Design research area.
The BB classification is not technically unlocked by anything in the game as a quirk of the game's classification system allows conventional predreadnought-type battleships to be classified as BBs as long as they fulfill certain conditions, but if you want to build true dreadnoughts you need to have at least one of the N Centerline Turrets technologies or Main Battery Wing Turrets as cheatereater suggested. Ships with 3+ 10" turrets can be classified as Bs rather than BBs:
I am in fact uncertain that there is a ship configuration using 10" guns which would be classified as a BB; I think an 11" or heavier main battery is a necessary condition for a ship to be classified as a BB within the game. That said, I cannot say that I've ever seriously attempted to get a ship armed with 10" or lighter guns to be classified as a BB, so maybe there's a quirk of the classification system which would allow it.
Yeah, there are a few quirks to the system. From the manual: But the general picture is close.
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Post by wlbjork on Mar 28, 2021 12:19:29 GMT -6
- Is there a "rule of thumb" for armor? I mean : a quick conversion rule of "your armor should be this factor related to that type of gun". I know that distance and so much rules do have an impact, but that's just to get an idea for as long as my personal experience is close to zero. It might not be a rule of thumb but this is how i armor my ships. <snip> The rule of thumb for armour is that the stated value from clicking the guns tab is the average penetration, and can vary by +/- 20%. *Decide what calibre of gun you wish to protect yourself from and at what range. *Check the current armour penetration of that calibre (if your guns are not Q1, check if another nation has developed Q1 guns and use that value). *If you want complete immunity from that calibre, increase protection by 20% to allow for above variance, otherwise accept the stated value.
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Post by palpatine on Apr 2, 2021 10:55:40 GMT -6
Corvettes(KE), what's their point? I mean compared to DD? Should I build them? Especially in the first decade when ASW is poor?
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Post by nimrod on Apr 2, 2021 12:17:15 GMT -6
Corvettes(KE), what's their point? I mean compared to DD? Should I build them? Especially in the first decade when ASW is poor?
The silly non-helpful answer is that it depends on your nation.
The basic rule of thumb is that you can build much larger KEs than DD in 1900s which helps meet your foreign station demands, they are cheaper per ton and cost less to maintain. Their primary uses aren't direct combat but "trade protection" be it convoy duty, colony duty, minesweeping or ASW duty.
As alluded to above there are four main uses of KE.
1. Minesweepers. 2. Colony / Foreign station keeping - 1600 tons with colonial service = 2000 tons of station keeping.
3. Assigned to trade protection.
4. ASW.
Their are three big considerations to keep in mind.
1. 600 nd 900 tons are cut-offs for ASW tech and can be your best cost per ASW point ships. 900 tons allows quad K-guns and forward ASW mortar. 600 tons allows for 2 K-guns and no mortar.
2. Sub 500 ton KE's are only available in times of war and hit the waters in 4 months. They are build-able as soon as the design is finalized as they are converted / armed civilian ships and they are decommissioned at the end of a war. They are decent for emergency TP / minesweeping. The low weight makes them a bit suspect for ASW use, but they do have an ASW value.
3. Ships with minesweeping gear have their ASW value halved - they are pulling double duty, going after subs one day and the next going after mines.
Italy, AH, Japan, Russia (countries with few colonies) I will build a few for minesweaping and TP duties in 1900. Once I get K-guns and other ASW tech I start building a good number of them for ASW use as they are cheaper than a DD and have comparable ASW values. This also frees up the DDs to protect my battle lines / CVs.
Germany, and other nations with colonies in multiple sea-zones, I'll build quite a few for foreign station duty, minesweeping, TP and ASW once the techs are available.
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Post by captaintrek on Apr 2, 2021 19:57:03 GMT -6
Corvettes(KE), what's their point? I mean compared to DD? Should I build them? Especially in the first decade when ASW is poor? Compared to what Nimrod said and what the thread he linked says, I take a slightly different tack when it comes to corvettes. I don't use KEs for ASW ever, and the simple reason for that is that if you do, you will be constantly subjected to "sunk in spirited gunnery duel!" events, which forces you to constantly build more corvettes. I also like to keep costs to an absolute minimum, as it would be incredibly unlucky to have corvettes under your direct command even half-a-dozen times across an entire 55 year campaign, thus I don't see the need to try and make them "competitive". So here's what I do: 1: I build 1,000 minesweepers. A lot of 1,000 ton minesweepers. In my last campaign as Germany I had 10 at game start and 50 by 1940, and even then I still lost several modern cruisers to mines during one particularly long and vicious war against the Paris-Washington axis. Minesweeping value scales with tonnage up to a limit of 1,000 tons, and 1,000 tons gives you the best bang for your buck. These minesweepers remain on active fleet during wartime and are never sent to trade protection. KEs on AF and FS can get "sunk in spirited gunnery duel!" events, but it's rare, whereas with KEs on TP it can and will happen multiple times a turn if you have a lot of KE and the enemy has a lot of SS. Mineweeping aside, these ships also make good cannonfodder against enemy submarines. With so many AF KEs about, there's a lower chance of more important ships getting torped. 2: 1,600 ton foreign station corvettes are legit, filling out your foreign station requirements at far lower cost than the traditional foreign station CLs. You will have annoyingly many of them if you pull this cheese as Britain, but it does still work even then. Being the map-painter that I am, I had 50 foreign station corvettes by the end of that Germany campaign. Note that I prefer 1,600 tons to 1,700 because a 1,600 ton ship with colonial service gear provides exactly 2,000 tons of foreign station tonnage, which makes calculating how many you need a snap. 3: Again, minimum cost. You can't give them short range or cramped accom. since they need to sail all around the world during wartime (unless you're someone like AH), but even if you're not otherwise a fan of low freeboard, there's absolutely no Earthly reason not to give low freeboard to your corvettes. Obviously you don't give them unit machinery, AA guns, or any of that fancy stuff. Just a couple of basic 4 or 5-inchers with local fire control will do ya. There's a certain point (I think it's either 15 or 17 knots. Might depend on whether you're using the horsepower mod) beyond which further reducing the speed no longer really reduces costs, so you can just give them that speed. So what about ASW? Simple. Build runs of cheap (20 knots, one tube) destroyers at 500, 600, and then 900 tons as technology permits, refitting with ASW gear as it unlocks. Again, low freeboard, speed engines, local-only fire control, no AA, all that good stuff. Maybe even short-cramped since ASW ships can provide their ASW value globally without leaving the home area. On TP, these ships will still give the same ASW value as KEs would, but without the "spirited gunnery duel!" events. As with minesweepers, you'll need a lot of these (50-70 by late game probably, depending on the rival nations' submarine profligacy, and I also reccomend liberal use of flying boats against submarine-heavy enemies), and you can also refit your outdated combat DDs into more minesweepers or ASW ships as needed. Note that whereas minesweeping KEs belong on AF, you should keep converted minesweeping DDs on TP so the game doesn't (often) throw them into battle by mistake. Be aware that unlike ASW ships, minesweepers on TP still need to be manually moved to the specific sea zone you want swept.
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Post by stevethecat on Apr 3, 2021 5:58:06 GMT -6
Corvettes(KE), what's their point? I mean compared to DD? Should I build them? Especially in the first decade when ASW is poor?
They can be for poor nations a way to increase ship points in an area or quickly build up some TP/ASW capability. But honestly they are best avoided due to the endless 'sunk in gun dual with submarine!' event.
You can build a 1800t KE, with armour that rivals a light cruiser and coated in 4" guns, and you can lose half a dozen every turn to 'sunk in gun dual'. Best to just sticking the far more useful DDs.
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Post by epigon on Apr 3, 2021 6:19:48 GMT -6
Is there a difference in effectiveness of corvettes when equipped with 5 inch guns?
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Post by wlbjork on Apr 3, 2021 16:54:46 GMT -6
Yes. For one thing, they seem to be able to win the gun duels with submarines with 5" guns. It also makes them more effective if you get a sudden mission dropped on them - had a couple of 1,600t "colonial cruisers" thrown into battle once. 4*5" primary with 4*4" secondary, convoy raid. Hot knife through butter.
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Post by palpatine on Apr 4, 2021 4:35:58 GMT -6
Thanks again for all the insights and opinions! Great to hear all the points of view about all these mechanics. What a game!
Another question : why are in some battles a division "independent" and whatever I do, they refuse to be set to "core" and subordonated to the flagship. Of course, they are part of may main force. I have tried it even at close range and under good conditions of visibility and some stubborn subdivision commander just revert to "ind" on the next turn. Important detail : playing on the Admiral.
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Post by captaintrek on Apr 4, 2021 6:48:18 GMT -6
This isn't going to make me any friends, but my advice to that would be just don't play on Rear Admiral's mode.
I know, I know, but truthfully - between such lovely features as my best battlecruisers constantly being stuck uselessly escorting my carriers while my oldest battlecruisers are getting torn up by the enemy's, ships staunchly refusing to slow down to deal with fires or flooding, and the "detach and return to port" prompt literally being a lie (all it actually does is set the detached ship to independent, which does not mean "return home", but rather "wander around aimlessly, often straight into the entire enemy fleet"), I just find Rear Admiral's mode too frustrating to be worth it, quite frankly. ^^;
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