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Post by navalperson on Mar 27, 2021 14:49:44 GMT -6
I’m curious on how long do you usually keep a ship in service. I’m playing as Japan right now and have kept some old battleships built in 1910s don’t remember the specific dates built but around 1915 and so. But now it’s 1948 and I’ve thought about replacing them but due to budget and focusing on building a somewhat large carrier fleet I’ve put it in the back burner. So I kind of wanted to know how long everyone keeps their ships.
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Post by aeson on Mar 27, 2021 16:52:48 GMT -6
I do not feel that how long I keep a ship in service is really relevant to what you're asking, which is whether or not you should continue to retain some c.1915 battleships in service into the 1950s, because the answer to that question really depends on whether or not the battleships you have are adequate for what you want them to do, whether or not they can be made adequate for what you want them to do with a refit or reconstruction cheap enough to be justifiable, and whether or not the added capability of a modern replacement would be sufficiently great to justify the greater expense as compared to retaining the older ships in service. To give a worthwhile opinion in response to that question, I'd really want to know at minimum what the ships you have look like, what you're considering to do to the old ships to keep them in the fleet, and what the ships you might replace them with would look like, and preferably also what you expect the ships to accomplish and what other ships you have in the fleet which could fulfill that role.
Regardless, I personally usually replace my dreadnought and superdreadnought battleships with fast battleships in the 1920s and 1930s, with the last of the superdreadnoughts typically being scrapped in the mid-'30s, as I like my late-game capital ships to be reasonably fast and do not consider rebuilding the old battleships for higher speeds to be worth the cost. Similarly, 1910s cruisers tend to be scrapped in the 1930s as better cruisers are likely to be built in the 1920s and 1930s. On the other hand, 1910s battlecruisers and destroyers will often remain in service until the end of the game, the battlecruisers and ~1,500t destroyers because by the mid-1910s they're likely fast enough and armed well enough to remain adequate in front-line roles through the end of the game even if more modern examples are superior, and smaller destroyers because if nothing else they're at least adequate for ASW work.
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Post by navalperson on Mar 27, 2021 18:02:51 GMT -6
I do not feel that how long I keep a ship in service is really relevant to what you're asking, which is whether or not you should continue to retain some c.1915 battleships in service into the 1950s, because the answer to that question really depends on whether or not the battleships you have are adequate for what you want them to do, whether or not they can be made adequate for what you want them to do with a refit or reconstruction cheap enough to be justifiable, and whether or not the added capability of a modern replacement would be sufficiently great to justify the greater expense as compared to retaining the older ships in service. To give a worthwhile opinion in response to that question, I'd really want to know at minimum what the ships you have look like, what you're considering to do to the old ships to keep them in the fleet, and what the ships you might replace them with would look like, and preferably also what you expect the ships to accomplish and what other ships you have in the fleet which could fulfill that role.
Regardless, I personally usually replace my dreadnought and superdreadnought battleships with fast battleships in the 1920s and 1930s, with the last of the superdreadnoughts typically being scrapped in the mid-'30s, as I like my late-game capital ships to be reasonably fast and do not consider rebuilding the old battleships for higher speeds to be worth the cost. Similarly, 1910s cruisers tend to be scrapped in the 1930s as better cruisers are likely to be built in the 1920s and 1930s. On the other hand, 1910s battlecruisers and destroyers will often remain in service until the end of the game, the battlecruisers and ~1,500t destroyers because by the mid-1910s they're likely fast enough and armed well enough to remain adequate in front-line roles through the end of the game even if more modern examples are superior, and smaller destroyers because if nothing else they're at least adequate for ASW work.
Yeah sorry I wasn’t sure where I was going with that just wanted a little input and see if I’m close to how long other people keep super dreads for. but I was curious to see the service life of other people’s ships. I should have worded it a little bit differently.
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Post by navalperson on Mar 27, 2021 18:37:03 GMT -6
The Sagami class which I originally built 3 till Russia blew one up I plan on retiring after the end of the war I'm in right now. The Fuso class which is a class of 3 I thought about upgrading their 6 inch secondary's to DP. The role of the Sagami's right now is just to have them around as backup. The Fuso's are my front line battleship class.
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Post by navalperson on Mar 27, 2021 18:42:04 GMT -6
I haven't thought about the Kongo's classes future. I know I will most likely keep the Amagi class till the end of the game. For replacement if I did think about replacing my older battleships I would probably use the Amagi class design and improve armor to probably 14 inch belt. The Kongo and Amagi's have probably seen the most action in war's. The Amagi's I designed as my main capital ships with the idea of serving till the end with a secondary role as an aircraft carrier escort. They both are a class of two.
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Post by dia on Mar 27, 2021 20:11:47 GMT -6
I’m curious on how long do you usually keep a ship in service. I’m playing as Japan right now and have kept some old battleships built in 1910s don’t remember the specific dates built but around 1915 and so. But now it’s 1948 and I’ve thought about replacing them but due to budget and focusing on building a somewhat large carrier fleet I’ve put it in the back burner. So I kind of wanted to know how long everyone keeps their ships. Depends on the class, fleet size, and nation. There's always exceptions and outliers, but generally this is how I do it when playing average size fleet and not US or GB: B - Maybe converted to a CVL, but generally scrapped once I have enough BB's BB - I never scrap these, older and outdated ships I will keep around for their force strength points, especially in quieter sea zones or the home zone if the bulk of the fighting is somewhere else. Have a lot of fun using 1st or 2nd generation dreadnoughts is coastal bombardments against enemy colonials where the only opposition is some KE's BC - Also never scrap, but older ships get demoted to raiding or trade protection CA - Again, I don't scrap. As armored cruisers get older they'll go from trade protection to trade protection outside of home region and eventually to raiding until they're sunk. They might do a stint as a colonial ship as well. Heavy cruisers follow a similar path but generally don't get stuck on the raiding till death stage by the end of the game. CL - Same as above. CL's will start as frontine units, then as reserve, then regulated to TP in non-home sea zones or as active units in quiet sea zones, then maybe permanent colonial ships, and finally death by raiding. They may also go on raiding depending on the war situation. Generally by the 1960s all legacy CLs and CAs will be put on raiding until they're sunk and mothball during peace CV - Don't scrap. If it's a really bad first generation CV I'll usually use it to help gaurd the homefront if the main body is somewhere else. CVL - Similar to CVs, but when it comes to converted CVLs I'll typically put them on TP DD - Keep these forever. If it's no longer suitable for active fleet service it goes to the quieter sea zones to support older CL's and older BB's that may be there. If they're too old for that or short ranged, cramped, or a legacy DD they get refitted with as much ASW gear as they can carry, stripped of all but 1 torp, and put on trade protection forever.
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Post by aeson on Mar 27, 2021 20:19:52 GMT -6
I don't think that it's necessary to replace the Fusos, Kongos, or Amagis, though I would definitely upgrade their AA armaments. I would suggest replacing the secondary and tertiary batteries on all seven ships with a single 5" DP battery with splinter protection (2" armor), and since you appear not to have done so I would strongly recommend adding at least three (preferably a full set of four) AA directors to each ship under the "Additional Armament" tab; fitting some light and medium AA guns at the same time would not be a bad idea. If you have the technology and can find the tonnage for it, it would also be a good idea to fit one or two SAM launchers to each ship, but it's not the end of the world if your capital ships are reliant upon escorts for that capability.
The Sagami-class battleships are a more interesting question. They're rather slow for operating in company with the Fusos and their armor protection is only more or less on par with that of your battlecruisers, but on the other hand ten 14" guns isn't a bad armament and it's late enough in the game that I personally would be ambivalent about laying down new battleships. If you had a larger battle line, I might just scrap them and not worry about replacement; if it were earlier in the game, I'd almost certainly replace them with something more along the lines of the Fusos; as it is, it is late enough in the game that carriers will often dominate major battles, at least until SAMs become prevalent, and so a sub-par battle line is not necessarily a significant problem. As such, while my inclination is very much for replacement, I would suggest at least investigating the cost of a modernization that replaced the secondary and tertiary batteries with a large 4" or 5" DP battery with splinter protection and increased the design speed to 24 or 25 knots to make the ships more compatible with the Fusos (don't forget to add three or four AA directors at the same time). If the cost of such a modernization is less than half the cost of building whatever it is that you'd replace the Sagamis with, it might be worth modernizing the two ships so that you can spend the money you'd otherwise spend on their replacements elsewhere.
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Post by navalperson on Mar 27, 2021 20:27:56 GMT -6
I don't think that it's necessary to replace the Fusos, Kongos, or Amagis, though I would definitely upgrade their AA armaments. I would suggest replacing the secondary and tertiary batteries on all seven ships with a single 5" DP battery with splinter protection (2" armor), and since you appear not to have done so I would strongly recommend adding at least three (preferably a full set of four) AA directors to each ship under the "Additional Armament" tab; fitting some light and medium AA guns at the same time would not be a bad idea. If you have the technology and can find the tonnage for it, it would also be a good idea to fit one or two SAM launchers to each ship, but it's not the end of the world if your capital ships are reliant upon escorts for that capability.
The Sagami-class battleships are a more interesting question. They're rather slow for operating in company with the Fusos and their armor protection is only more or less on par with that of your battlecruisers, but on the other hand ten 14" guns isn't a bad armament and it's late enough in the game that I personally would be ambivalent about laying down new battleships. If you had a larger battle line, I might just scrap them and not worry about replacement; if it were earlier in the game, I'd almost certainly replace them with something more along the lines of the Fusos; as it is, it is late enough in the game that carriers will often dominate major battles, at least until SAMs become prevalent, and so a sub-par battle line is not necessarily a significant problem. As such, while my inclination is very much for replacement, I would suggest at least investigating the cost of a modernization that replaced the secondary and tertiary batteries with a large 4" or 5" DP battery with splinter protection and increased the design speed to 24 or 25 knots to make the ships more compatible with the Fusos (don't forget to add three or four AA directors at the same time). If the cost of such a modernization is less than half the cost of building whatever it is that you'd replace the Sagamis with, it might be worth modernizing the two ships so that you can spend the money you'd otherwise spend on their replacements elsewhere.
Okay thanks
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Post by whitefang on Mar 27, 2021 22:05:54 GMT -6
I've kept old semi-dreadnoughts as TP fairly often, if i don't get around to converting them to carriers. They have enough armament to see off anything that isn't a full-on BB/BC, and the slow speed isn't too big a concern for convoy escort
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Post by vasious on Mar 28, 2021 1:49:13 GMT -6
Aside from any Budgetary and treaty and Colonial needs and circumstances
I always keep my Last Pre Dreadnaught in service.
And I image she would still be kept in a White Red Black livery.
Silly RP
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Post by rockmedic109 on Mar 28, 2021 15:22:44 GMT -6
Another thing to think about is the ratio with other nations. Especially in Europe or Med where blockade is a feature of warfare. You want to have enough to prevent or ensure the blockade. This might force you to keep older hulls a little longer.
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Post by rob06waves2018 on Mar 28, 2021 17:34:57 GMT -6
I have a couple of different rules for my ships after the start phase (I say 1910 ish): B - Can't wait to scrap. They go. Yesterday. Any CVL conversion is fairly awful and a 10kt CA will do fine as a experimental vessel. Pre-dreadnoughts just screw up the battleline BB - These I generally keep until 1950 provided they a) can do at least 28knts b) have at least 15" guns and c) have a minimum deck of 4". These conditions can be in the inital build (which I attempt to do) or as a refit. Anything else is CV fodder and wastes budget. Anything under these requirements get scrapped, generally without replacement in the 1930s. BC - I treat as BBs. Speed is useless with aircraft around. 28 knts with good deck armour is better than a glass cannon doing 30 knts. CA - Scrap/don't build. Legacy CAs are budget sinks for limited use. And I'd rather have more 10kt CLs with 6" guns than build treaty cruisers. Anything bigger and it may as well be a BC/BB. Use 2/3 as CVL conversions until CVs come online. Then send to the great ocean in the sky. CL - Keep 12-24 ships as front line units. These are generally 10-12kt CLs by the late game. Replace as they're sunk or become too obsolete to upgrade. For colonial units, replace anything not AoN as a rule of thumb. Then build short production runs as required to fill losses, generally as an iterative process. DD - Scrap anything under 900t. This is the minimum for a full ASW suite. Then cull everything you can't fit every ASW system to (coal 900 tonners sometimes can't). Retain a few guns and torp tubes, just in case of mistakes in the OOB. But they should be on TP. Again 36-48 front line units (with MS as they travel with the fleet. ASW secondary). KE - It's a destroyer... but worse. Don't build. (Obviously not historically but in game... yeah, no) AV - Hahahahaha.... no CV - Keep any with >50 a/c and a spotting of >18 (10-12 strike, 8-6 fighters per wave) CVL - Don't generally build but if they can keep up, load with fighters and set on CAP Obviously AA gets refitted to the best, even at the expense of a turret. I like 5" DP or 3" auto DP. Secondary batteries go to this setup after 1930 (I use 6-8" before on BC/BBs). After 1950, some things change: B - Just. No. BB - Retain 6 brilliant, 28 knt ships with up-to-date armour schemes. Build in about 1940 with at least 50kt displacement and 16" guns (or 15" Q1, love them) BC - Scrap any remaining. Then, if budget allows, build 2-3 32 knt BCs with good deck armour. This is a vanity project though; the BBs will do fine. CA - Now these are fun! Build 8-12 CAs with SAMs and auto 8" guns. They will do great! (But remember TPS and deck armour) CL - As before, but now with auto 6" guns. DD - As before, but add SAMs to your new fleet destroyers (they're worth more than a twin 5" at this point). KE - As before. AV - Hahahahaha.... no. But now shoot the guy suggesting them as an example! CV - As before. Buy as many as you can. CVL - As before. AA is the key. Here is a summary of my last UK game (fleet size relative to the highest level): BB - 4 homogenous 50kt 16"-armed BBs w/SAMs @ 28 knts, 2 90kt 18"-armed BBs (expensive so not recommended). All built post 1930. BC - 2 45kt 15"-armed BCs w/SAMs @ 31 knts. Built 1943. CA - 8 9x8" w/SAMs CAs. About 15kt (also expensive, but fun). CL - 18 6" fleet units, 37 6kt FS units DD - Pretty much as above. >60 900t TP ships. CV - 12 (6 building). Goodbye budget. (>80 planes). CVL - 0 I had been in perpetual war basically and the budget crashed every time I wasn't, so this may not be feasible every game. UK as well.
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Post by director on Mar 29, 2021 6:55:09 GMT -6
1) As a general rule I do not re-engine or re-gun - not anything. An exception to this would be a cruiser converted to a carrier or a just-launched coal-fired battlecruiser of good power and design. 2) I usually build my semi-dreadnoughts to make 20-21 knots, so I keep them around to fill out my dreadnought fleet. B's go at 20 years or when the AI nations scrap theirs. 3) Expected life of a destroyer is 20 years - maybe 25. Regardless of how RtW does it, in real life the hulls and engines won't last a lot longer (unless they spend a lot of time laid up). 4) Expected life of cruisers and capital ships is 20-30 years, depending in part on speed concerns. A 21-knot battle speed will be workable until the late 1920s, but not much longer. 5) Older light cruisers can be useful on colonial duties IF they can be speedily reinforced come wartime, but often I build separate fleet and colonial classes with the latter having 1" less gun caliber or one fewer turret.
In RtW a small number of high-quality ships can be leveraged to beat a larger number of AI-controlled ships, so because of the rapid advance of technology I do not, with few exceptions, keep a lot of old ships around.
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Post by nimrod on Mar 29, 2021 12:05:27 GMT -6
Depends on the nation, but I closely follow dia's model. KEs and DDs are forever.
AV's may get scrapped or moved to secondary / tertiary sea-zones depending on the nation. Same with CVls - really depends on the nation and budget. I mean AH and Italy really don't have any possessions outside of the Med... Yes Italy has Eritrea, but in my current Italian game I've not stationed a ship or plane in the Indian ocean and in 4 wars with France and a war with GB its never been invaded. Japan has a solid 2ndary sea-zone in my mind and needs a bit of expansion into the South Pacific to have a tertiary sea-zone.
Only real difference I have with dia's model is that I've been known to have coal powered legacy B's retrofitted with SAM's... Might not be the wisest, but I tend to agree with vasious. But its usable force / blockade tonnage for smaller cash-strapped nations that are nearly always at war and they do actually help on the AAA front. I do feel bad for the sailors though when war rolls around. Generally though, I don't build many B's so the few I have generally go the CVL or overseas route in the 1920's and it is a sad day when the last one is struck from the registry.
Aeson gives good advice. I'm not sure why the single 5" dp vs. double 5" dp though. '
Sagami really can go both ways, depending on your budget and likely opponents; upgrading it to be an AAA BC makes a bit of sense given the TP 2. If your opponents are armed with 18" guns, you might be better off mothballing and then putting them in reserve when war rolls around or scraping. Ships in reserve, I believe, still count for blockade strength.
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Post by aeson on Mar 29, 2021 18:49:11 GMT -6
Aeson gives good advice. I'm not sure why the single 5" dp vs. double 5" dp though. ' 'Single 5" DP battery' was meant to be read as a single, uniform secondary battery of 5" caliber - in contrast to the dual-caliber secondary battery (or, if you prefer, mixed-caliber secondary battery, separate secondary and tertiary batteries, or secondary and heavy AA batteries) that the ships currently have - not as a battery of individually-mounted 5" guns.
That said, you lose guns to battle damage more rapidly on average when you put more of them into a single mounting, so there are some advantages to using individually-mounted guns. Blockade strength does not consider ships in either Reserve Fleet or Mothballed status for either preventing an opponent from enforcing a blockade or enacting a blockade on an opponent.
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