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Post by scaffold on Jan 9, 2022 10:37:20 GMT -6
Hello everyone!
What is the relationship between Light and Medium AA? When Medium AA guns appear, do they effectively supersede Light ones, or are they still both needed?
From the history, they are needed both. But I am not sure how this is modelled in the game.
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Post by aeson on Jan 9, 2022 11:44:38 GMT -6
Generally speaking, LAA guns become less effective as the game progresses - there is a chance (dependent upon the attacking aircraft's speed) that LAA guns will not engage an attacker before it drops its bombs/torpedo, and on top of that LAA guns are less powerful than MAA guns, so LAA guns are less useful against faster, tougher aircraft than MAA guns are. However, regardless of whether or not LAA guns engage an attacker before it drops its bombs/torpedo, LAA guns will apply a disruptive effect to an attacker which reduces the likelihood that the attacker will score a hit, so even in the very late stages of the game LAA guns retain enough utility that it's probably worth keeping a few of them on the ship.
I personally would say that LAA guns are at least as useful as MAA guns throughout the '20s and perhaps even as late as the mid-'30s, as aircraft are still relatively slow (therefore unlikely to complete an attack before the LAA guns can engage) and fragile (thus LAA guns aren't too much worse at seriously damaging or downing them than the heavier MAA guns), but beyond the mid-'30s the situation changes pretty rapidly as the speed and toughness of the aircraft you expect to encounter starts to increase fairly significantly. As such, I tend to start out with a roughly an LAA:MAA ratio of 2:1 in the early-'20s and gradually increase the proportion of MAA guns as the game progresses, usually having a roughly 1:1 ratio on new construction by the early-'30s and a 1:2+ ratio on new construction from the '40s onwards. I don't normally take ships in for refit just to change the balance of their L/MAA suite, so the overall balance of AA guns in the fleet might lag behind that a bit depending on how rapidly older ships get refitted or taken out of service.
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Post by christian on Jan 9, 2022 12:23:26 GMT -6
Some tests were done on the RTW discord and LAA surpasses MAA at all times but accounting for diminishing returns LAA gets situationally worse in 1945+ and only with diminishing returns on the LAA
This means on DD/CL/CA you just put as much LAA as you can fit since MAA will never be better
So rule of thumb
If not BB/BC/CV then 100% LAA
If BB/BC/CV pre 1940 then 50-60 LAA then remaining MAA
If BB/BC/CV post 1945 then 40-50 LAA then remaining MAA
This is under the assumption you want your ships to be hit less
If you just want to shoot down as many planes as possible but don't care about how many times your ships get hit then MAA is superior post 1935.
LAA gives much better disruption and thus reduces enemy aircraft hitrate alot more increasing overall ship survivability
I like to think of this games LAA as MAA and i have thought about trying to switch around LAA to MAA (name wise) but i dont know how to do it
because from a realism perspective it makes little sense that LAA is better than MAA
(why it works like it does)
why LAA just straight up beats MAA
LAA seems to have the same disruption stat as MAA but takes up 1/3rd as much space
this essentially means LAA has 1/3rd (or 33,3%) higher disruption
Disruption is practically the only relevant part to stopping aircraft from hitting their target.
LAA always applies disruption before targets drop their ordinance even if they do not fire (and thus cant damage or destroy aircraft) before they drop their ordinance
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Post by TheOtherPoster on Jan 9, 2022 13:26:52 GMT -6
This may be a dumb question
Heavy 3", 4" and 5" AA guns have of course to be installed in turrets, not casemated.
But how do they become AA guns instead of just normal antiship guns?
When we install those guns on a carrier, are they always AA guns?
What about DD guns and secondary guns in capital ships and cruisers? If they carry those guns in turrets, when do they stop being antiship guns and become AA guns?
Or they just don't until they become dual purpose? but of course there were heavy AA guns well before dual purpose guns were developed
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akd
Full Member
Posts: 126
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Post by akd on Jan 9, 2022 13:52:06 GMT -6
If true, this seems broken. Despite lower RoF, the MAA is going to have significantly longer reach, thus more time to disrupt, not to mention larger, more intimidating tracer while in flight and shell burst on self-destruct.
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Post by charliezulu on Jan 9, 2022 16:56:01 GMT -6
This may be a dumb question Heavy 3", 4" and 5" AA guns have of course to be installed in turrets, not casemated. But how do they become AA guns instead of just normal antiship guns? When we install those guns on a carrier, are they always AA guns? What about DD guns and secondary guns in capital ships and cruisers? If they carry those guns in turrets, when do they stop being antiship guns and become AA guns? Or they just don't until they become dual purpose? but of course there were heavy AA guns well before dual purpose guns were developed AA guns in those calibres are represented as DP guns in-game. Something like the WWI-era QF 3" HA mount would be a secbat/tertbat of 3" DP. IRL that's not considered a DP gun because 3" shellfire against a large warship in 1914 is not very useful, but if Iron Duke were being attacked by torpedo boats, I'd expect the crews on the 3" guns to start firing. While there are AA guns that fire larger calibre rounds while still being of extremely questionable use in an ASu role (e.g., the 5"/25), there's no way to add something like that in game; every 5"+1 gun is assumed to have identical ASu performance regardless of if it's DP or not. |
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Post by wlbjork on Jan 9, 2022 22:14:02 GMT -6
AA guns in those calibres are represented as DP guns in-game. Something like the WWI-era QF 3" HA mount would be a secbat/tertbat of 3" DP. IRL that's not considered a DP gun because 3" shellfire against a large warship in 1914 is not very useful, but if Iron Duke were being attacked by torpedo boats, I'd expect the crews on the 3" guns to start firing. While there are AA guns that fire larger calibre rounds while still being of extremely questionable use in an ASu role (e.g., the 5"/25), there's no way to add something like that in game; every 5"+1 gun is assumed to have identical ASu performance regardless of if it's DP or not. In game I just consider it to be a case of skipping the 3" 20cwt guns and sticking with the 12 pounder guns, which fairly early on got a HA mount (-10 - 90 degrees) and a HA/LA mount (-10 - 70 degrees). |
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Post by christian on Jan 10, 2022 2:44:16 GMT -6
If true, this seems broken. Despite lower RoF, the MAA is going to have significantly longer reach, thus more time to disrupt, not to mention larger, more intimidating tracer while in flight and shell burst on self-destruct. Agree MAA should be significantly better at both damage and disruption (at basically all time periods) but the game doesent "properly" simulate range But both MAA and LAA apply their disruption stat before the enemy drops ordinance and since disruption is the best and practically only important AA stat having more disruption is better and the LAA just wins there Would be nice if the Devs gave MAA 50% more disruption to account for it being better IRL |
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Post by christian on Jan 10, 2022 2:50:51 GMT -6
This may be a dumb question Heavy 3", 4" and 5" AA guns have of course to be installed in turrets, not casemated. But how do they become AA guns instead of just normal antiship guns? When we install those guns on a carrier, are they always AA guns? What about DD guns and secondary guns in capital ships and cruisers? If they carry those guns in turrets, when do they stop being antiship guns and become AA guns? Or they just don't until they become dual purpose? but of course there were heavy AA guns well before dual purpose guns were developed 3", 4", and 5" can only be anti ship or DP they cant be dedicated AA guns. 1) They dont, they become AA guns AND antiship guns. 2) No they work like on any other ship, if enemy aircraft are in range they shoot at aircraft, if enemy ships are in range they shoot at those. 3) When you click the [DP] box it turns the guns from Single purpose (SP) into Dual purpose guns (DP) DP guns can shoot at both aircraft and at ships So a cruiser or destroyer with DP guns will shoot at both aircraft and ships 4) There are no dedicated AA only guns in this game except MAA/LAA |
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Post by janxol on Jan 10, 2022 6:14:09 GMT -6
Also note that DP guns have different ammo composition than then single purpose gun. Single purpose guns use whatever you set in doctrine, while in case DP box is checked, you get (if I recall correctly) 100% HE for 5" or less and 20% AP 80% HE for 6" guns. The proportions might be off but something liek this rings a bell in my head.
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Post by ludovic on Jan 10, 2022 13:10:50 GMT -6
So rule of thumb If not BB/BC/CV then 100% LAA If BB/BC/CV pre 1940 then 50-60 LAA then remaining MAA If BB/BC/CV post 1945 then 40-50 LAA then remaining MAA This is under the assumption you want your ships to be hit less If you just want to shoot down as many planes as possible but don't care about how many times your ships get hit then MAA is superior post 1935. LAA gives much better disruption and thus reduces enemy aircraft hitrate alot more increasing overall ship survivability Could you explain the reasoning why BB/BC/CV are the ones that should take on MAA if you want to use it rather than non BB/BC/CV? I'd think that it would be opposite: you want to try to do everything you can to prevent your BB/BC/CVs from getting hit. Whereas you might also want your other ships to just not get hit and thus take 100% LAA, but if any sort of ship should be concentrating on downing planes rather than not getting hit, I'd think it would be the support ships. |
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Post by christian on Jan 10, 2022 13:51:52 GMT -6
So rule of thumb If not BB/BC/CV then 100% LAA If BB/BC/CV pre 1940 then 50-60 LAA then remaining MAA If BB/BC/CV post 1945 then 40-50 LAA then remaining MAA This is under the assumption you want your ships to be hit less If you just want to shoot down as many planes as possible but don't care about how many times your ships get hit then MAA is superior post 1935. LAA gives much better disruption and thus reduces enemy aircraft hitrate alot more increasing overall ship survivability Could you explain the reasoning why BB/BC/CV are the ones that should take on MAA if you want to use it rather than non BB/BC/CV? I'd think that it would be opposite: you want to try to do everything you can to prevent your BB/BC/CVs from getting hit. Whereas you might also want your other ships to just not get hit and thus take 100% LAA, but if any sort of ship should be concentrating on downing planes rather than not getting hit, I'd think it would be the support ships. BB/BC/CV are the only ships with a large enough amount of tonnage (and thus enough deck space) where you can get enough LAA to hit diminishing returns (AKA there is a system that makes it so the more you have the less efficient another one will be thus exists for HAA MAA and LAA but each are seperate) and thus when you have around 40-50 LAA putting on MAA instead becomes more efficient (LAA diminishing returns don't have any effect on MAA) |
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