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Post by tbr on Jan 21, 2022 3:08:56 GMT -6
The absolute worst was SMS Goeben. The last battlecruiser (the Kirovs notwithstanding), the last exemplar from the European dreadnought race. But for USS Texas the last capital ship of the dreadnought era. Available to become a museum ship at a time her historical significance was well known.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Jan 21, 2022 7:53:27 GMT -6
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Post by zederfflinger on Jan 21, 2022 8:55:21 GMT -6
The absolute worst was SMS Goeben. The last battlecruiser (the Kirovs notwithstanding), the last exemplar from the European dreadnought race. But for USS Texas the last capital ship of the dreadnought era. Available to become a museum ship at a time her historical significance was well known. I've heard that the Turks wanted an insane amount of money for her, so Germany declined, despite having interest in the ship.(Not sure if this is true, just what I've read in youtube comments) Such a shame.
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Post by tbr on Jan 21, 2022 10:09:53 GMT -6
The absolute worst was SMS Goeben. The last battlecruiser (the Kirovs notwithstanding), the last exemplar from the European dreadnought race. But for USS Texas the last capital ship of the dreadnought era. Available to become a museum ship at a time her historical significance was well known. I've heard that the Turks wanted an insane amount of money for her, so Germany declined, despite having interest in the ship.(Not sure if this is true, just what I've read in youtube comments) Such a shame. The insane amount of money was five years earlier, from the minimum required offer from anyone (including scrap dealers). They received no bids. The non-decision against making it into a museum in Germany was because a purely private initiative could not raise the money for the additional cost of the project (transport, restoration, slip/mooring etc.). The then government in Germany was unwilling to support this from the (funded) federal museum programs or via one of the existing (or a ne founded) foundation. That was mostly motivated by sheer antipathy to the military and Imperial Germany which overrode the any consideration of the actual substance.
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Post by tbr on Jan 21, 2022 10:11:51 GMT -6
The same thing happened about 25 years later with FGS "Deutschland" (though her historic relevance was also IMO insufficient). Luckily FGS "Mölders" is preserved though.
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Post by director on Jan 21, 2022 14:21:16 GMT -6
Ship types I wish we had (or had more of):
Frigates and smaller: we have several, including reproductions Ship-of-the-line: HMS Victory stands alone, which is a shame. Give me Ohio, Temeraire, Nelson's Agamemnon or Captain Steam-and-sail: Oh, for a Napoleon and Isherwood's Wampanoag, and throw in Hartford as CV10 requests Ironclads: We have Huascar, though most of us will never get to see her, and Warrior is being restored. A casemate ironclad and a monitor-or-two would be appreciated Pre-WW1: no battleships survive except Mikuma. USS Olympia represents cruisers... I'd want more, including a semi-dreadnought like Danton or Satsuma and a couple of big armored cruisers WW1: Iron Duke, Friedrich der Grosse, Lion, a QE in WW1 rig, Derfflinger or Hindenburg for a start. And yes, Goeben/Yavuz should absolutely have been preserved WW2: most categories are taken care of now but I sure would like to see a Littorio...
Feel free to add your own categories or ships to the list.
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Post by cv10 on Jan 24, 2022 3:59:26 GMT -6
HMS Warspite would have made a good museum ship if there'd been money for preservation. It would have looked mighty fine docked somewhere in Portsmouth within view of HMS Victory.
HMS Victorious would also have been nice as a museum after decommissioning in 1968. It would be hard to name a theater of war that Victorious did not see action in; it helped chase the Bismarck, escorted Arctic convoys, covered supply convoys to Malta, went to the South Pacific for a time to help out the USN in 1943, went back to Northern Europe to attack the Tirpitz, and then finished out the war in Eastern Fleet/British Pacific Fleet.
I suppose I find the lack of of any preserved British carrier or dreadnought battleship to be lamentable.
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Post by wlbjork on Jan 24, 2022 11:19:50 GMT -6
HMS Warspite would have made a good museum ship if there'd been money for preservation. It would have looked mighty fine docked somewhere in Portsmouth within view of HMS Victory. HMS Victorious would also have been nice as a museum after decommissioning in 1968. It would be hard to name a theater of war that Victorious did not see action in; it helped chase the Bismarck, escorted Arctic convoys, covered supply convoys to Malta, went to the South Pacific for a time to help out the USN in 1943, went back to Northern Europe to attack the Tirpitz, and then finished out the war in Eastern Fleet/British Pacific Fleet. I suppose I find the lack of of any preserved British carrier or dreadnought battleship to be lamentable. Lack of funds for the most part. Warspite was old and worn out and it showed, she'd have needed a rebuild just to be suitable as a museum ship, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Victorious was in a similar state.
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Post by zederfflinger on Jan 24, 2022 17:13:04 GMT -6
HMS Warspite would have made a good museum ship if there'd been money for preservation. It would have looked mighty fine docked somewhere in Portsmouth within view of HMS Victory. HMS Victorious would also have been nice as a museum after decommissioning in 1968. It would be hard to name a theater of war that Victorious did not see action in; it helped chase the Bismarck, escorted Arctic convoys, covered supply convoys to Malta, went to the South Pacific for a time to help out the USN in 1943, went back to Northern Europe to attack the Tirpitz, and then finished out the war in Eastern Fleet/British Pacific Fleet. I suppose I find the lack of of any preserved British carrier or dreadnought battleship to be lamentable. Lack of funds for the most part. Warspite was old and worn out and it showed, she'd have needed a rebuild just to be suitable as a museum ship, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Victorious was in a similar state. Really? I thought that Victorious was in excellent shape. She didn't take any battle damage after being rebuilt, did she?
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Post by wlbjork on Jan 25, 2022 1:49:09 GMT -6
Lack of funds for the most part. Warspite was old and worn out and it showed, she'd have needed a rebuild just to be suitable as a museum ship, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that Victorious was in a similar state. Really? I thought that Victorious was in excellent shape. She didn't take any battle damage after being rebuilt, did she? It was the fire that put paid to her career I was thinking of. It was 'relatively small' but the RN chose to dispose of her rather than repair the damage due to a lack of funds.
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Post by archelaos on Jan 25, 2022 5:35:22 GMT -6
Pre-WW1: no battleships survive except Mikuma. USS Olympia represents cruisers... I'd want more, including a semi-dreadnought like Danton or Satsuma and a couple of big armored cruisers There is one big armored cruiser you forgot - Giorgios Averof, probably the only ship that almost by itself turned the tides of a war.
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Post by tbr on Jan 25, 2022 10:27:56 GMT -6
Ship types I wish we had (or had more of): Pre-WW1: no battleships survive except Mikuma. That's "Mikasa" and I would debate that she "survives". I've been there and, unlike HMS Victory, HMS Warrior, USS Constitution, USS Wisconsin as well as scads other museum ships, Mikasa feels dead. That is because she has not just been "concreted" ashore but also "decored", i.e. engine, munitins handling, crew accomodation etc internals have been mostly removed (exceptions are Togo's cabin, the wardroom and the radio room). Mikasa is a pale shadow of herself, the SSN turbine room installation that used to be in the Smithsonian National Museum of American History felt more alive.
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Post by director on Jan 26, 2022 15:15:29 GMT -6
archelaos - you are right to add the Averoff to the list - a most distinguished ship and a critical piece of naval history. tbr - yeah, that was a stupid mistake. No idea where that came from... I've never had the chance to see her remains, so I defer to your assessment. Still, she is the sole remaining example of her type, complete or not.
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Post by tbr on Jan 26, 2022 15:52:38 GMT -6
archelaos - you are right to add the Averoff to the list - a most distinguished ship and a critical piece of naval history. tbr - yeah, that was a stupid mistake. No idea where that came from... I've never had the chance to see her remains, so I defer to your assessment. Still, she is the sole remaining example of her type, complete or not. Above decks she is rather enjoyable. But once you go below you miss all the elements that make a ship, not just a building that is a mock-up of one. What is there started with the ship, but IIRC between having served as some kind of assembly hall and the disarmament after WWII (the main guns are mockups) too much was lost.
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Post by tbr on Jan 26, 2022 16:02:56 GMT -6
Do not get me wrong, Mikasa is worth a visit if you are there and have the time. This website has some pictures belowdeck, in fact there is practically everything in there you can see. The "exhibition" of the ship models etc. occupies the center of the decored hull where the machinery used to reside. Apart from the wardroom and Togo's cabin there is nothing which can give you a feel for how the crew lived. What weapon installations can be seen fell disconnected because key elements of thier operation (ammunition handling, reserve ammunition boxes etc.) are missing. The whole installation gives of a vibe like visiting the Magic Castle vs. visiting Marksburg or Burg Eltz gives. Even the artificial retread castles like Saalburg and Neuschwanstein feel more "real".
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