Can't get DDs to use torpedoes

[ck07]

As JA fighting RU, I have many DDs w/4 torps each and 2,000 yds at fast. But I can't get them to use them. The "Flotilla Attack" button doesn't seem to do anything in the 10+ times I've tried to use it. If I take over control of the DD division the "launch torpedoes" button is never available.

Except during the surprise attack, I have seen only 2 launched at TRs and none at warships even @ <1,000 yds w/favorable geometry. VERY annoying in one battle when I was being pursued by 2 Bs just as night was falling and had 15 DDs that had done nothing yet in the battle.

Help?

[wlbjork]

"Flotilla Attack" increases the chance of a DD squadron detaching in an attempt to torpedo an enemy vessel.

Are you using Torpedo Training?

To be honest though, 4 torpedoes isn't a huge amount (2x2?). Once you get triple launchers, the number of launches made seems to increase a lot, by the time you get 4 and 5 tube launchers it seems the crew will happily fire them off with wild abandon.

[umbaretz]

I just gave up on AI and was running my latest games in Captain's Mode, which allows you to launch torpedoes manually.

Had a much better experience.

[gurudennis]

In a roundabout and possibly unintended way, this overly torpedo-shy AI has a solid foundation in reality. I remember reading that at Jutland, DD captains tended to ignore perfectly valid opportunities to fire off torpedoes, or would only fire a single torpedo where a spread would greatly increase the hit probability, for fear of missing out on an elusive better opportunity down the line. This despite the fact that at least the British doctrine called for aggressive use of torpedo volleys. The apparent disconnect between the sound doctrine and the not-so-sound judgement at the grassroots is thought to be one of the major contributing factors to the dismal torpedo performance at Jutland on both sides relative to pre-war expectations.

[ck07]

Thanks. I'm finding that the flotilla attack order rarely results in the DDs moving toward the enemy, though. Will try "Captain."

[kagami777]

May 25, 2022 16:50:05 GMT -6 ck07 said:

Thanks. I'm finding that the flotilla attack order rarely results in the DDs moving toward the enemy, though. Will try "Captain."

From my personal experience captain is a much more enjoyable experience owing to the poor performance of many of the AI manned ships. I have lost a good number of ships because I ordered them to return to the nearest port and found them driving into the land trying to go to some port instead of the one literally ten miles from them.

[garrisonchisholm]

May 28, 2022 0:34:37 GMT -6 kagami777 said:

May 25, 2022 16:50:05 GMT -6 ck07 said:

Thanks. I'm finding that the flotilla attack order rarely results in the DDs moving toward the enemy, though. Will try "Captain."

From my personal experience captain is a much more enjoyable experience owing to the poor performance of many of the AI manned ships. I have lost a good number of ships because I ordered them to return to the nearest port and found them driving into the land trying to go to some port instead of the one literally ten miles from them.

For the record this was a subject of play-testing debate and should be improved in '3.

[garrisonchisholm]

May 25, 2022 16:50:05 GMT -6 ck07 said:

Thanks. I'm finding that the flotilla attack order rarely results in the DDs moving toward the enemy, though. Will try "Captain."

That is certainly a way to force the torpedo doctrine you wish, but be aware that will make your experience much more tactically focused.  I felt I was removing myself from the strategic play of the game when I contemplated at Captain, and decided that the performance I was seeing was historical (however frustrating) for the first 20 years of the game.  It is tempting to wish for 5-10 torpedo hits per fleet action, but trying' to achieve this by minute control doesn't feel right for me personally.

One thing I have tended to find is that boat captains tend to be more aggressive with their torpedo usage when they have more tubes available.  A slow and otherwise "poor" 1900 DD was very effective for me as Japan when I equipped it with 3 tubes.

All that being said, if you enjoy the game more by playing on Captain's level then that's all that matters!

(shout-out to my favorite serial Captain-level abuser tortugapower )

[ludovic]

May 28, 2022 0:34:37 GMT -6 kagami777 said:

May 25, 2022 16:50:05 GMT -6 ck07 said:

Thanks. I'm finding that the flotilla attack order rarely results in the DDs moving toward the enemy, though. Will try "Captain."

From my personal experience captain is a much more enjoyable experience owing to the poor performance of many of the AI manned ships. I have lost a good number of ships because I ordered them to return to the nearest port and found them driving into the land trying to go to some port instead of the one literally ten miles from them.

That is the reason I switched to Captain's Mode as well, although I never had that specific scenario of driving into the land happen to me. What happened quite often, though, was ordering a ship to limp back to port since it was damaged and usually flooding, only to have it get halfway to port only to turn around and try to rejoin the main fleet at full speed and sink itself. (That occasionally happens in Captain's Mode, as well, but much less often: when I have a ship that is detached from its squadron due to damage and I order it to go very slow or at a standstill, it will sometimes spontaneously start itself at its full speed again. This happens regardless of whether it is close enough to rejoin its former squadron or not.)

[euchrejack]

May 25, 2022 16:50:05 GMT -6 ck07 said:

Thanks. I'm finding that the flotilla attack order rarely results in the DDs moving toward the enemy, though. Will try "Captain."

What I do in Admiral mode is move my destroyers very close to the enemy capital ships, usually by moving my flagship close to the enemy capital ships or in front of the enemy capital ships, THEN activate flotilla attack for maximum chance of a torpedo attack.

I also have seen my destroyers break off from my main line to advance towards the enemy line with flotilla attack, especially if my main line is turning away from the enemy.
The threat of destroyers can sometimes allow MY capital ships to safely disengage.

[director]

Ah, it's time for this again.

You can do four things to get your destroyers to attack with torpedoes:

1) During design, make sure they have more than two tubes - four or more by choice.
2) Set the flag to 'torpedo attack'. This may help you because the enemy will instantly see it, even if your own DDs don't, and will often flinch away. As euchrejack said above, that can be a VERY useful disinformation tactic.
3) Go to individual destroyer squadrons and set their target to the ship you want them to attack. Set their Role to Independent.
4) Observe the physical setup. The AI is fanatical bout being slightly ahead of your forces and will tie itself into a pretzel to stay there. By this I mean that it will remain ahead of your ship's beam and, if behind it, will maneuver.
Firing a torpedo from the enemy ship to yours means the torpedo is 'rolling downhill' - the speed of your ships is added to the torpedo speed to reach the actual closing speed.
If you fire at the enemy, his speed is subtracted from the torpedo speed to produce the closing speed - IE, you are 'shooting uphill'.
Since the firing solution is bad because of the physical positions of your ships, your DDs do not shoot.

This helps explain why your DDs tend to shoot only at very close range or when the enemy is stopped.

This does not explain the frequent situations where I cross the enemy T only to get shot up while scoring no gunnery hits and discover that my DDs won't fire torpedoes anyway... but that's for a different time.

[tortugapower]

May 30, 2022 21:26:03 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

(shout-out to my favorite serial Captain-level abuser tortugapower )

What, you want me to experience history and all its (un)fairness? Bah!

[kagami777]

May 31, 2022 11:42:26 GMT -6 ludovic said:

May 28, 2022 0:34:37 GMT -6 kagami777 said:

From my personal experience captain is a much more enjoyable experience owing to the poor performance of many of the AI manned ships. I have lost a good number of ships because I ordered them to return to the nearest port and found them driving into the land trying to go to some port instead of the one literally ten miles from them.

That is the reason I switched to Captain's Mode as well, although I never had that specific scenario of driving into the land happen to me. What happened quite often, though, was ordering a ship to limp back to port since it was damaged and usually flooding, only to have it get halfway to port only to turn around and try to rejoin the main fleet at full speed and sink itself. (That occasionally happens in Captain's Mode, as well, but much less often: when I have a ship that is detached from its squadron due to damage and I order it to go very slow or at a standstill, it will sometimes spontaneously start itself at its full speed again. This happens regardless of whether it is close enough to rejoin its former squadron or not.)

Oh yeah, that to, its why as soon as I split off a ship due to damage I grab it and manually aim it towards the port.