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Post by andrzej597 on Aug 5, 2022 13:07:37 GMT -6
I have a suggestion about late-game coastal artillery, think it can be implemented: Since early 1960s some countries, primarly Sweden, developed towed coastal guns of 75-mm, 105-mm, 120-mm and 155-mm calibres, which could be rapidly repositioned to a threatened place using trucks or artillery tractors and quickly emplaced almost everywhere using system of outriggers. Soviet Union also had semi-movable coastal 100-mm and 130-mm guns. A suggestion: maybe in late-game such movable coast batteries can be implemented? Maybe they can be technicaly done as a "land ships", using the same logic as ships but moving only over land like ships in-game move only over sea and automatically turn away from coast when driven to it? I think "quickly emplaced" is a relative term here. They should have a significant chance of showing up in a coastal battle where the land holder isn't surprised, and perhaps a chance of appearing during longer battles, but I think that the player moving them around is too much.** An idea for that would be a system that basically alerts the player that mobile guns are on the way and gives them the option to pick a position to emplace them. Then after a semi-random time they appear and begin the emplacement process. **The player might be able to request that they show up in a specific spot, but once they're emplaced they shouldn't move. Or if they do, they should be unable to fire for a significant period of time before and after their move. Even a 75mm towed gun is a fairly large undertaking to move, emplace, and survey to allow for fire control calculations. My limited google research didn't bring up specifics on the guns or their carriers, so I could be underestimating their capabilities. Well, for example swedish Bofors 7,5 cm m/1965 coastal gun could be towed with a speed of 60 km per hour and, with trained crew, could be fully deployed and ready to fire from travelling mode in just two minutes (data from swedish Coast Artillery museum), so I think, keeping in mind post-WWII "Real time warfare" approach, naval commander certainly could command a coastal battery of that guns to quickly reposition amidst of ongoing battle. However, that number (2 minutes) goes only for just preparing for firing on any surface without preparing a protected position - preparing fortifications (digging ditches for guns and ammo storage, emplacing sandbags) would take more time. So I think my proposal can be combined with that of yours: before start of the battle batteries of that guns can be spawned on protected and prepared sites, and in the course of battle they could be repositioned into new locations, but without benefits of fortifications protection (that means, much more vulnerable against attacks). |
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Post by abclark on Aug 5, 2022 14:03:11 GMT -6
I think "quickly emplaced" is a relative term here. They should have a significant chance of showing up in a coastal battle where the land holder isn't surprised, and perhaps a chance of appearing during longer battles, but I think that the player moving them around is too much.** An idea for that would be a system that basically alerts the player that mobile guns are on the way and gives them the option to pick a position to emplace them. Then after a semi-random time they appear and begin the emplacement process. **The player might be able to request that they show up in a specific spot, but once they're emplaced they shouldn't move. Or if they do, they should be unable to fire for a significant period of time before and after their move. Even a 75mm towed gun is a fairly large undertaking to move, emplace, and survey to allow for fire control calculations. My limited google research didn't bring up specifics on the guns or their carriers, so I could be underestimating their capabilities. Well, for example swedish Bofors 7,5 cm m/1965 coastal gun could be towed with a speed of 60 km per hour and, with trained crew, could be fully deployed and ready to fire from travelling mode in just two minutes (data from swedish Coast Artillery museum), so I think, keeping in mind post-WWII "Real time warfare" approach, naval commander certainly could command a coastal battery of that guns to quickly reposition amidst of ongoing battle. However, that number (2 minutes) goes only for just preparing for firing on any surface without preparing a protected position - preparing fortifications (digging ditches for guns and ammo storage, emplacing sandbags) would take more time. So I think my proposal can be combined with that of yours: before start of the battle batteries of that guns can be spawned on protected and prepared sites, and in the course of battle they could be repositioned into new locations, but without benefits of fortifications protection (that means, much more vulnerable against attacks). Two minutes is much faster than I would have expected, although I have to wonder about their fire control quality with that short of a setup time. Accurate surveys including the gun positions and the fire control equipment was usually a requirement for coastal guns. A ~3" gun could be mostly effective under local or basic rangefinder control through most of its useful range band, but that's not so true for a ~6" gun. Does the museum mention the method of control for their 2 minute emplacement? |
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Post by andrzej597 on Aug 6, 2022 5:11:54 GMT -6
Well, for example swedish Bofors 7,5 cm m/1965 coastal gun could be towed with a speed of 60 km per hour and, with trained crew, could be fully deployed and ready to fire from travelling mode in just two minutes (data from swedish Coast Artillery museum), so I think, keeping in mind post-WWII "Real time warfare" approach, naval commander certainly could command a coastal battery of that guns to quickly reposition amidst of ongoing battle. However, that number (2 minutes) goes only for just preparing for firing on any surface without preparing a protected position - preparing fortifications (digging ditches for guns and ammo storage, emplacing sandbags) would take more time. So I think my proposal can be combined with that of yours: before start of the battle batteries of that guns can be spawned on protected and prepared sites, and in the course of battle they could be repositioned into new locations, but without benefits of fortifications protection (that means, much more vulnerable against attacks). Two minutes is much faster than I would have expected, although I have to wonder about their fire control quality with that short of a setup time. Accurate surveys including the gun positions and the fire control equipment was usually a requirement for coastal guns. A ~3" gun could be mostly effective under local or basic rangefinder control through most of its useful range band, but that's not so true for a ~6" gun. Does the museum mention the method of control for their 2 minute emplacement? Yes - the guns were controlled by "Arte-719" radar FCS with on-mount ballistic computer with backup laser and TV sensors. Computer featured automatic parallax calculation relative to guns positions, so that solved the problem of gun position survey. Data from radar was automatically fed to the computer and to the zero-pointer devices on the guns, which were aimed according to the information fed. In case of emergency, aiming using on-mount optical sights was possible. In 1980s Arte-719 has been replaced with solid-state semiconductor based Arte-727 which was mainly used with new 120-mm mobile coastal guns which were in use until 2005. Also, an interesting note - swedish mobile coast batteries were usually mixed gun-missile ones, with one battery of mobile guns and one of mobile AShMs. |
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Post by tbr on Aug 6, 2022 11:05:45 GMT -6
Two minutes is much faster than I would have expected, although I have to wonder about their fire control quality with that short of a setup time. Accurate surveys including the gun positions and the fire control equipment was usually a requirement for coastal guns. A ~3" gun could be mostly effective under local or basic rangefinder control through most of its useful range band, but that's not so true for a ~6" gun. Does the museum mention the method of control for their 2 minute emplacement? Yes - the guns were controlled by "Arte-719" radar FCS with on-mount ballistic computer with backup laser and TV sensors. Computer featured automatic parallax calculation relative to guns positions, so that solved the problem of gun position survey. Data from radar was automatically fed to the computer and to the zero-pointer devices on the guns, which were aimed according to the information fed. In case of emergency, aiming using on-mount optical sights was possible. In 1980s Arte-719 has been replaced with solid-state semiconductor based Arte-727 which was mainly used with new 120-mm mobile coastal guns which were in use until 2005. Also, an interesting note - swedish mobile coast batteries were usually mixed gun-missile ones, with one battery of mobile guns and one of mobile AShMs. Yes, all true. But the Swedish Coastal Artillery is and was focussed on the Schären. That means their targets are smaller vessels in very restricted waters, which is reflected in the relatively small calibre of their guns and their very lightweight AShM (e.g. modified Hellfire). They are not the "classic" coastal defense vs. high seas combatants and large scale amphibous landings with massive naval gunfire support. Today that is more the provice of medium/large AShM's on TEL's and some specialized SPG's in Russia:
And then there is something very special:
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