Hey, waitaminute!!!!!

[cwemyss]

So I'm playing as the UK, it's 1939. I'm in a war with Italy, it's going well, and Japan jumps in against me.
I've got *some* forces in SEA/NEA, because tension was already up, but nowhere close to parity.

I fight a nasty, horribly outmatched Invasion battle about 30 miles south of Hong Kong. I've got 2 BC, 1 CA, 1 CL, and a couple tin cans, against half the Empire's fleet. Air attacks first, I get a BC damaged in exchange for one of their BBs taking 2 torpedoes.

Night falls, weather closes in. I take advantage of my better radar, find the Transports and send 6 of 8 to the bottom. I don't get off light... 2 DDs sunk, the other BC and the CL damaged. CA Europa (17k tons, 10x9) is immobilized but keeps fighting, and absolutely drills a Japanese CA with a hail of shells... both are lost.

Net result, victory. Costly, but invasion averted.
.
.
.
.
.

WRONG.

Post-battle inter-turn messages: "Taking advantage of our naval weakness in Southeast Asia, Japanese forces have invaded our possession Malaya."

Dammit, that's irritating, frustrating, pick your adjective.

Does the computer get to plan multiple invasions???
I fought off the invasion fleet, what mechanic allows them to invade somewhere else???

I've played a lot of hours of this game, this is the first time I've been truly angry.

[cwemyss]

Addendum. The next popup:
"Taking advantage of our naval weakness in Northeast Asia, Japanese forces have invaded our possession Weihaiwei."

Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot

[cwemyss]

Ok, further info with a cooler head. My forces:

NEA: 1 BC, 3 CL, 3 fleet DD, 2 ASW/patrol DD, 3 colonial KE, 2 MS/patrol KE

SEA: 2 BC, 1 CA, 2 CL, 3 Fleet DD, 1 ASW/patrol DD, 2 colonial KE

As noted, post-battle there weren't a lot of functional ship in SEA... 1 BC, 1 CL, 1 ASW DD, 2 colonial KE

I had all of the KEs set to AF, all of the ASW DDs to TP.. . My usual setup during a war.

Because I hadn't been fighting in Asia the BCs and CLs were also set to TP, to stop Italian raiders. I hadn't switched them back to AF when Japan joined the war. A staff flunky should consider himself lucky we're a democratic society.

Does that mean the major surface units weren't counted in the calculations regarding snap invasions? If so, does that really make sense? Sure, they'd be focused on convoy protection, but they'd also be at least somewhat available to counter an invasion. As evidence... see the battle that DID happen. All four heavy units were set to TP, and they still showed up. And just as important, by having the battle, they gave my significant land based air a chance to participate.

If the surface units werent counted at all, I dont think that's realistic or fair. And it appears that the Snap Invasion logic doesnt include (or severely under-includes) land based air. By having no actual battles for either Weihiaiwei (~40-60 aircraft present at W and Dalny, all Fair or Good) or Malaya (~120 aircraft at bases in Malaya, Singapore, and Sumatra, same quality) the planes had no visible impact.

Japan's only CV and at least one CVL were present at Hong Kong, which means LBA should have slaughtered the invasion fleets, particularly the one in Malaya.

[williammiller]

cwemyss Thanks for the reports.

Will refer this to our internal Beta threads to look all the above over for what might be going on, and what adjustments might be needed for such actions.

[cwemyss]

Thanks! I appreciate that. One of the things I've always really liked about this series is how incredibly involved and responsive you are.

I played some more this morning (and ow I'm away from the computer for a couple days) so I dont have a save to send you.

[tbr]

In genral, the "invasion" scenarios need far higher VP rewards for sinking the transports, in sum about 1,5 to 2 times the 80k VP the attacker gets for the transports reaching the disembarkation point. As is the defender "looses" even if all invasion transports are sunk after reaching the disembarkation point. IRL that would be a catastrophe for the attacker. IRL even the sacrifice of some medium-high value capital ships would have been worth that.

[tbr]

E.g. the IJN should (would) have been willing to "trade" a Kongo for 1st Mar Div...

[ludovic]

Aug 14, 2022 15:09:05 GMT -6 tbr said:

In genral, the "invasion" scenarios need far higher VP rewards for sinking the transports, in sum about 1,5 to 2 times the 80k VP the attacker gets for the transports reaching the disembarkation point. As is the defender "looses" even if all invasion transports are sunk after reaching the disembarkation point. IRL that would be a catastrophe for the attacker. IRL even the sacrifice of some medium-high value capital ships would have been worth that.

I think they should be worth more than they are currently. But I don't think it should be almost an auto lose if your transports are sunk after reaching their destination. It would be a disaster if the navy has no further beach assault ships and the army has not captured an intact port, but that will not always be the case. Plus, having to guard invasion ships over an arbitrary point during daylight should not be necessary. It would be another story if you got to take control of the transports once they unloaded their cargo: you could then shepherd them back to a port if you could while darkness still held.

Actually I thought of another idea. How about making the transports be worth as much as you say  -- if they are sunk before they disembark their passengers. If 6 of the invasion transports unload successfully, but another 6 get sunk with all equipment and many men lost, then that would be a disaster.

[tbr]

Aug 15, 2022 11:21:12 GMT -6 ludovic said:

Aug 14, 2022 15:09:05 GMT -6 tbr said:

In genral, the "invasion" scenarios need far higher VP rewards for sinking the transports, in sum about 1,5 to 2 times the 80k VP the attacker gets for the transports reaching the disembarkation point. As is the defender "looses" even if all invasion transports are sunk after reaching the disembarkation point. IRL that would be a catastrophe for the attacker. IRL even the sacrifice of some medium-high value capital ships would have been worth that.

I think they should be worth more than they are currently. But I don't think it should be almost an auto lose if your transports are sunk after reaching their destination. It would be a disaster if the navy has no further beach assault ships and the army has not captured an intact port, but that will not always be the case. Plus, having to guard invasion ships over an arbitrary point during daylight should not be necessary. It would be another story if you got to take control of the transports once they unloaded their cargo: you could then shepherd them back to a port if you could while darkness still held.

Actually I thought of another idea. How about making the transports be worth as much as you say  -- if they are sunk before they disembark their passengers. If 6 of the invasion transports unload successfully, but another 6 get sunk with all equipment and many men lost, then that would be a disaster.

It takes a lot of time to disembark any invasion force, this is not a commando raid. To get the division+ amount of troops in most scenarios, their materiel and supplies ashore across a beachhead would take well more than 24 hours, with pre 1944 or so tech/doctrine we are talking days, plural.