RTW3 Submarine effectiveness

[brygun]

In general Im seeing way less TR losses to submarines in RTW3.

Not sure if thats my doctrine or what. What are other people's experience?


My general doctrine is ~3 SSC per sea zone I have with a clump in my home sea. My intention is to be raiding all across the globe interfering with trade in a way that would take a lot to hunt them down.

Coastals cant move doing a war zone so the later types, SS, SSM, SSG are used as a shiftable force.


The TR sinkings im seeing even on unrestricted are like 1/10 per sub where was in RTW2 it was 1 per sub.

[brygun]

Screenshot of concern

I am Germany fighting Uk.

I am blockaded so UK has sea trade going on

My 42 SSC on unrestricted sunk all of 1 TR... 1/42

My 16 surface raiders are sinking at @ 2 TR per  ... 2/1 

That's an 80 fold difference.

These are mostly day 1 SSC so reliability 43. I did see similar low scores in my last game as UK too even as the sub reliability was rising.

[abclark]

I've noticed AI submarines being completely ineffective, but then again, it's at times when I have lots of dedicated ASW destroyers. I just assumed that my high ASW score was preventing them from making good attacks.

[wlbjork]

Is it that subs are less effective, or is it that the new system dilutes their attacks more whilst making it easier for ASW assets to drive off the attackers?

[stww2]

There's a screenshot in the "Moments of humor" thread where someone's subs sunk 280 merchant ships in one month...not saying this proves subs are stronger/weaker than in RTW2, but certainly they can be effective in at least some circumstances

[bthom37]

You HAVE to go unrestricted to have any impact with subs. And it does seem to take them a while to become effective, but they can definitely get there. I build 80%+ as SS, with SSC if I'm in Europe and SSM filling out the remainder.

[flamedraken]

IIRC another thing to note is that you will encounter fewer merchants of an enemy you are blockading. That may also be a factor.

[brygun]

The game im currently is unrestricted warfare with myself at war against 6 enemies. Im blockaded and 1 of the enemy is but 5 are not.

The earlier screenshot is at war against one, they are not blockaded, im on unrestricted and its 1 TR per 10 subs.

Im wondering if people can post what ratios they are seeing of subs to TR sunk each turn. (unrestricted, target nation not blockaded)


It seems dismal right now.

[t3rm1dor]

Conisdering in Rtw 2 you could win a war in two months by spamming subs, it may be the case of then being two effective in the previous title rather than the other way around. Also AI build much more destroyers than in 2, maybe that is reducing effectiveness as well.

[brygun]

Jul 25, 2023 5:06:24 GMT -6 t3rm1dor said:

Conisdering in Rtw 2 you could win a war in two months by spamming subs, it may be the case of then being two effective in the previous title rather than the other way around. Also AI build much more destroyers than in 2, maybe that is reducing effectiveness as well.

That could be it.

im at war with 6 nations so the ratio of DD to Subs is kinda high

[brygun]

Im running another game now. Its early. Im Germany and this time only at war with UK. They usually have me blockaded.

Went from ~10 to ~20 subs and still seeing all of one TR sink for the force. So the 0.1 TR/SUB is still there (0.05 TR/SUB might be rounding or luck issues)

Meanwhile my ~30 CLR (cruiser light raider under 3,000 tons) work out as the first 10-15 are blocked but the next ones get kills at 2 TR/CLR so the total is ~30 TR sunk.


The sub math is very different from RTW2. It really doesn't seem right. I've basically aborted the first game as it was sub focused to this one with CLR spam and this seems to be working.

Really doesn't feel like subs are working right.

[brygun]

This is from my new Germany game. Its also seeming very wrong. 

I am GER vs UK.
UK is blockading me so UK merchants flow

19 subs, SSC up to 53 reliability in  1908 on unrestricted got ZERO TR. Roughy half are in Northern Europe where both GER and UK home zones are. The others are spread out where I have bases but so to does the UK.

Meanwhile the ~18? CLR get 21 sinks.

Subs need to be more effective.

[generalvikus]

Submarines failing to sink merchants in the pre WW1 era isn't a point against the game. At that time they didn't have the range and endurance to be effective commerce raiders, and were conceived of by both the British and the Germans as purely fleet support weapons for use in the North Sea (for example, sitting off enemy naval bases to observe the enemy entering and leaving) and especially as coastal defence vessels for protecting naval bases and, for the British, heading off invasion. They were, in the most literal sense, submersible torpedo boats, built for sitting in the path of enemy warships and ambushing them. German submarines physically could not have reached the British sea lanes at that time. The technology caught up to its potential only just in time for them to be effective in World War 1.

[brygun]

Jul 31, 2023 19:06:56 GMT -6 generalvikus said:

Submarines failing to sink merchants in the pre WW1 era isn't a point against the game. At that time they didn't have the range and endurance to be effective commerce raiders, and were conceived of by both the British and the Germans as purely fleet support weapons for use in the North Sea (for example, sitting off enemy naval bases to observe the enemy entering and leaving) and especially as coastal defence vessels for protecting naval bases and, for the British, heading off invasion. They were, in the most literal sense, submersible torpedo boats, built for sitting in the path of enemy warships and ambushing them. German submarines physically could not have reached the British sea lanes at that time. The technology caught up to its potential only just in time for them to be effective in World War 1.

What sort of submarine success are you seeing in the game?


The defenses against subs are also miserable in the pre WW1 era. 

[brygun]

A little fact searching on the WW1 submarines...

"After announcing the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare against Allied and neutral ships on January 31, 1917, U-boats sank more than 500 vessels by the end of April. The U-boats nearly succeeded in defeating Great Britain, but attacks on American merchant ships played an important role in the United States entering the war."

www.history.com/news/u-boats-world-war-i-germany

Let me draw the attention to the >500< sinkings over 4 months in 1917 which is very much WW1.

>>>>

Also in my game...

I have coastal subs at the 6+ sea zones I have colonies in. Including New Brunswick in my Germany hands which very much does place UK Halifax in Coastal submarine range.