Which tertiaries do you prefer, casemates or turrets?

[micromagos]

Specifically in the early game. Personally I would imagine turrets usually being better due to no weather penalty, better field of fire etc. Though I can see the survivability of casemates being potentially worthwhile. I'm curious what others use.

[director]

Casemates are better early on - turrets have reduction-in-rate-of-fire penalties. Once those come down to 20% or less, I prefer turrets.

Ships with casemated guns can be retrofitted as having a turreted secondary (and/or tertiary) battery. It isn't cheap but, if the ship is otherwise fast, powerful and armored enough, then upgrading the secondaries can let you keep it viable for years to come.

[micromagos]

Interesting, that definitely would make casemates more tempting early on.

[wlbjork]

Single mounts with 2" or less or armour don't - as far as I know - count as turrets, so you can use that option for guns of 2" or 3".

Continuing on though, I think 4" guns and larger should have more protection - and early game I think casemates are a lot lighter than turrets.

[micromagos]

Well its tertiaries so they don't have armor so I'm starting to think the turrets are better early game on them since I just had a match where they werent firing presumably due to the bad weather. Having the guaranteed to fire could be critical as an anti destroyer etc defense at all times

[iwst]

I usually put the tertiaries in turrets/open mounts, mostly due to the fact that that's where most 2-3 inch "anti torpedo boat guns" used to be on most pre-dreadnoughts and early dreadnoghts, but also due to the somewaht better fiering arcs and for a bit of redundance (if the casemate secondaries have issues due to weather, I have the turret tertiaries, if the tertiaries are out of action due to enemy fire, I usually have the secondaries).

[TheOtherPoster]

Unfortunately the game does not allow us to put any armour to protect our tertiary guns so there's no weight advantage either way. Actually, as they don't have armour, they are not really casemates. In the game, casemates on tertiary guns only means mounting these guns in the hull close to the water but still unprotected. Also earlier on there are not issues with top weight and single mounts have a better arc of fire. And historically, because these guns were light, they were mounted high up in the ship to get the best position against incoming TBs. So I tend to put them not in so called casemates but single mountings.

[micromagos]

Thanks for the info!

[oldpop2000]

Historically, casemates had a few problems. They were vulnerable to weather especially when placed near the waterline. They had a limited vertical height allowance for the guns and only about 120 degrees horizontally. They are almost useless as dual purpose with the introduction of aviation. However, they are lighter than turrets.

As to tertiary guns, I don't keep them. In one IJN game, I redesigned a pre-dreadnought that had tertiaries and was cramped. I removed the tertiaries and gain about 43 tons. This was enough to redesign the ship with normal room and add ammunition from 95 to 130 rounds. I probably could have added more since I still had extra tonnage.

The main purpose for tertiaries was to defend against light warshps that had to approach the ship to launch torpedoes. The torpedoes in the pre-dreadnought era had a short range, slow speed and imperfect accuracy. The tertiaries were useful against them. However, as the torpedoes improved with increased accuracy, faster speed and greater range, smaller warships did not have to approach the bigger warships and the tertiaries were useless. Eventually, the advent of aviation forced the casemated tertiaries to be remove and replace by dual purpose, semi-automatic and automated weapons. Many WW1 era dreadnoughts had their casemated tertiaries removed and replace by AAA weapons in turrets and open gun positions.

[TheOtherPoster]

I always use tertiary guns during the pre-dreadnought era. Because I like to increase the calibre of my secondary battery as fast and as much as possible. That means heavier fewer guns too slow to be effective against an incoming torpedo attack by a Flotilla of enemy DDs. So having a tertiary battery to deal with them is essential for me. But once we can start building dreadnoughts I also tend to disregard tertiary guns, keeping my secondary battery somewhere between 4 and 6in. Later on of course a secondary battery of DP guns in turrets is the best option.

[director]

I will use tertiaries on a semi-dreadnought, say with 12" main, 10" secondary and then a 4" or 5" tertiary. Otherwise, mains and secondaries only - the cost in tonnage and cash is too great.

[oldpop2000]

Sept 13, 2023 1:18:12 GMT -6 director said:

I will use tertiaries on a semi-dreadnought, say with 12" main, 10" secondary and then a 4" or 5" tertiary. Otherwise, mains and secondaries only - the cost in tonnage and cash is too great.

I never use a secondary gun size greater than 6" or 8". It just isn't worth the weight.  Secondary guns should by quick firing guns. This was their advantage; it was never destructive power or accuracy. that gave them a military advantage. The secondaries were used to knock out armored bows and sterns, spotting tops and bridges. Eventually, with the introduction of naval aviation they were used to hit at long range, faster and breakup formations.

[pedroig]

Tertiaries are always in turrets, they do not suffer the turret malus like secondaries do.

12" Main, 8" Secondaries, and 4" Tertiaries were a standard fare in the pre Dread era.

[director]

I never use a secondary gun size greater than 6" or 8". It just isn't worth the weight. Secondary guns should by quick firing guns.

My analysis of hits after-battle has convinced me that an 8" or 10" secondary, especially if it is of decent quality and quantity, will land enough hits and do enough damage per-hit to make it worth the weight. A pre-dreadnought can carry enough armor to shrug off a 6" hit or smaller. I take your point and agree with you, in early days - 6" in casemates is a good secondary. Later, as ship size grows, they can carry heavier armor and spread it around more, so a bigger gun is what I want.

[colprice]

I'll use casement secondaries for secondary battery - all sizes until I can get rid of the negative effects of turrets. Then I'll use turrets fro >7" secondaries, casements for 4" to 6" until DP mounts are available, then all secondaries will be DP mounts (twin turrets).