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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 26, 2023 15:37:40 GMT -6
Here are some advantages and disadvantages of three and four gun turrets.
1. A four gun turret does reduce the length of the citadel, which saves weight.
2. Four gun turrets are more complex although they use common load equipment.
3. In a four gun turret deployment, if the turret gets hit, you could lose all four guns. In a two turret system, thatis half of your fire power.
Three gun turrets, with three such turrets, you only lose 30% of your fire power. They are much simpler to operate and thus, have less chance of failure in combat. However, it does lengthen the citadel.
One issue you don't read about is that a four gun turret is wider than a three gun, and therefore the ship has to be wider to accomodate it. A wider ship means a lower length to beam, and lower speed unless you lengthen the ship to make up for it. Now the ship is heavier and slower to turn.
I have no idea if the game represents these characteristics. My studing of military history and science have taught me one thing: only the simple in war will succeed. Fact.
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Post by ewaldvonkleist on Oct 26, 2023 15:42:50 GMT -6
The game does not simulate turret width, but there are TPS and speed restrictions for triple+ turrets initiatlly.
One more advantage of quadruple turrets is that they allow you to have the maximum firepower forward. At least in RtW3, forward firepower is a lot more important than rearward firepower. I even use quadruple turret all forward designs before I get the all-forward weight bonus from research.
The turret redundancy argument imho is not very relevant for RtW3 unless you play small fleet sizes. The turret redundancy is ensured by having several ships with many turrets. One quadruple turret dying does not matter if you have 12 in your fleet.
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Post by ewaldvonkleist on Oct 26, 2023 15:44:01 GMT -6
Why 13.5 inches turret top? I would give the DP guns 2in splinter protection too. If you go for three quadruple turrets, the saved weigh can be invested in the rather weak armour belt. I am duplicating the AON design that the General Services Board stimulated. Quad turrets were too complex and were not adopted by the US. The DP guns using extra armor added to the weight which would decrease the speed. Speed, protection and firepower in a balance is my modus operandi. Another issue with four gun turrets is that if you take a hit on one four gun turret, you will lost four guns... on a three gun turret, you might only lose three guns. You will save guns and you can continue to fire. I was asking why you protected your main turrets with 13.5" armour from the top. Are you afraid of ICBMs from space destroying your turrets?
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 26, 2023 15:47:08 GMT -6
I am duplicating the AON design that the General Services Board stimulated. Quad turrets were too complex and were not adopted by the US. The DP guns using extra armor added to the weight which would decrease the speed. Speed, protection and firepower in a balance is my modus operandi. Another issue with four gun turrets is that if you take a hit on one four gun turret, you will lost four guns... on a three gun turret, you might only lose three guns. You will save guns and you can continue to fire. I was asking why you protected your main turrets with 13.5" armour from the top. Are you afraid of ICBMs from space destroying your turrets? Yup, you never can tell. Just kidding. The Constellation was never built, just a test of specifications. I would never have built a BB with that thickness of turret top armor.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Oct 27, 2023 14:59:13 GMT -6
I used my Springsharp 3.1 application and my Bismarck design. It had two quad mounts fore and aft. Here is the weight distribution in the form. Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 2,732 tons, 6.6 % - Guns: 2,732 tons, 6.6 % Armour: 12,708 tons, 30.5 % - Belts: 5,699 tons, 13.7 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,078 tons, 2.6 % - Armament: 3,352 tons, 8.1 % - Armour Deck: 1,867 tons, 4.5 % - Conning Towers: 713 tons, 1.7 % Machinery: 3,472 tons, 8.3 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,452 tons, 39.5 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,169 tons, 14.8 % Miscellaneous weights: 86 tons, 0.2 % - Hull below water: 83 tons - Hull void weights: 3 tons I am currently working on three gun mounts. Results to follow.
Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3,573 tons, 8.2 % - Guns: 3,573 tons, 8.2 % Armour: 13,533 tons, 31.2 % - Belts: 5,705 tons, 13.1 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,078 tons, 2.5 % - Armament: 4,141 tons, 9.5 % - Armour Deck: 1,875 tons, 4.3 % - Conning Towers: 734 tons, 1.7 % Machinery: 3,597 tons, 8.3 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,201 tons, 37.3 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,449 tons, 14.8 % Miscellaneous weights: 86 tons, 0.2 % - Hull below water: 83 tons - Hull void weights: 3 tons
Notice the increased armament weight. Also the armour weight incrrease.
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:13:34 GMT -6
Alright, here is my first catamaran light carrier. I can't build it yet, but I can practice designing them. It carriers 40 aircraft.
When posting carriers it is particularily important to upload 2 pics: one with the gun page, one with the additional like the planes and flight armor.
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:26:14 GMT -6
Alright, here is my first catamaran light carrier. I can't build it yet, but I can practice designing them. It carriers 40 aircraft.
Detailed feedback on the design = When adding a main gun you can set it to casemate. So for RTW games I do like to go "tadpole" 2 of single guns which are now casemated. This is to deal with the limited control that can happen and ships closing. 5-8" guns seem good for DD and CL. My tests found heaiver not worth it as lower ROF and you will never beat off anything big anyway. = Does the CV have its own torpedoes? those also good for deterring pursuit with little impact on the planes carried. Not required either. = I like the belt armor 3" as that is good for near hits by DD sized guns. 1" deck armor also reasonable for defense from DD. Conning tower might be heavier but at least it matches the belt. = Your 5" guns have no armor so no gun shields. 1" is nice splinter or airplane MG protection. Single guns are enclosed at 2.5" T and I like 1" TT then I consider them "all weather" = You have no AA not even LAA which is a major weakpoint in carrier duels = 40 planes is decent with airgroups like == 20 attack torpedo bombers and 20 fighters == more escort layout 16 tb 24 fighters to have more planes for cap = Secondary gun is set to have a director, thus assigned some weight, when you have no secondary guns = Catamaran hulls should probably be drawn wider than the usual. = A catamaran is more stable from roll so it does have that as a plus for carrier = Elevators for a catamaran carrier are a curious thought. How deep to the planes get lowered. If the hanger is above the hull split they could be anywhere. If you load them lower you'd have to put the elevators on the sides. = Funnels not shown in the draw. A catamaran hull propulsion do you merge to a central prop? if you have a propeller in each side section they need their own engine. Do the boilers get positioned to feed each engine? likely they should. That means a funnel on each side. = Speed 32. More than I use but it was period to push for speed. The lift from motion is based on speed squared so the upper bits of speed mater more. However its not always a huge chunk and can be compensated for with less fuel/load on the same plane or plane design tradeoffs. Once you have catapults you really don't need that much ship speed as stronger catapults can get those few knots for way less tonnage than speeding up a 1,000s tons of ship. = Long fuel is a good thought for carriers. RTW3 doent really need it but I also put it in. Really the carrier is running at high speed way more than other ships as part of launching and landing planes. = Unit machinery should be turned on for a catamarn design, assuming the likely propulsion arrangement in each side pod.
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:33:51 GMT -6
For the 1890 design: View AttachmentMy standard Colonial Battleship design for GB. Designed to provide an intimidating presence in the Mediterranean (and a few other locations) at a fairly cheap cost. = Interesting choice on short range. They do have their uses. Espicaly at game start short ranges are good for home defense and areas you will also want something. = Not so keen on the q-2 guns though at game start choices are limited. If there was a 8" or 10" q-1 Id switch to those. Also q-2 can never be upgraded due to RTW3 coding against it. = low freeboard oof... i get the weight savings but id likely add it in and up the tonnage slightly. though given her slow speed it might not affect much anyway. = secondary guns a fair choice. I usually use the 2.5" enclosed value vs 3" though both are reasonable trade offs. = speed 17 bit slow but thats a big weight item to change so understandable = colonial service a good choice to contest for foreign locations and avoid the presitge losses, though the ship is fairly small anyway. = overall graphic, nice monitor = not seen is the second tab for torpedoes. Id certainly want 2, 3 or 5 torps for side, rear and maybe double side. It would deter or hurt much bigger ships with that. = main gun firecontrol is local but quantity 2. Isnt there at least some FC to put on? can set it to quantity 1 since its only got one turret anyway.
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:40:17 GMT -6
In 1920, I chose instead to go for: View AttachmentWith a mass of 16 12" guns, it is intended to drown it's opponents in a sea of shells. I must admit, the secondary (casemate) armour is very much on the light side but I was also trying to keep the ship somewhat affordable. = BE at 5.5" thats pretty high. Trying for immunity from CL and CA at range? = 12 main guns not my style but it is an option and was your design intent = 90 rounds per gun seems low but given the number of barrels its okay. 90-100 was fairly common in real world designs. = Tertiary guns seem low. Id trim off 2 of the secondary for a better tertirary against DD and later planes. 6" guns are okay-ish but not ideal for DD that is more like 4" or 5" = conning tower armor seems low. I like to be at or closer to the belt armor. Some folks trim it down but a blown conning tower means a lack of control for a time which is when very bad things can happen to the ship. = If I was to change things it would be to remove the middle 4 gun turret to: == up ammo to gun so overall ammo count similiar == increase deck armor == improve tertirary 3" - 4" against fast movers like DD == turret top armor to 4 ( I use T/3 round up)
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:43:14 GMT -6
Well, I am venturing into the world of Catamaran Tin Cans. Here is my first attempt. I am building this vessel.
Decent = Only really needs one FC = personaly I favor smaller DDs then most = torps/ton is a poorer ratio but with 4 of 5" its a good gun DD = torps can't mass fire all on one side, so a tactical limit = As a catamarn DD it makes sense though I dont think it really is worth the trade off from a monohull. RTW3 wont give the guns stability bonuses.
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:50:59 GMT -6
Here is my design for an 1890's Pre-dreadnought
As you can see, I removed the tertiary guns. The 4 inch guns and possibly machine guns can handle the MTB's because the range of 1890 torpedoes was not long so the boats had to get close. I also reduced the 4 inch guns. This ship should have escorts to protect her from MTB's. Range of 14 inch torpedo in 1890 was about 440 yards at 29 knots or 225-550 yards at 25.9 knots. As you can see, a 4 inch gun and machine gun could deal with these MTB's due to the torpedo range.
I added a second aft 9 inch gun for firepower.
Freeboard is normal and range is medium to make this boat more useful. I used protected cruiser armor scheme and eliminated the upper belt and deck extended. Speed is the same but ok.
= graphic floater aft = conning tower fragile, some do that to save weight but you get a loss of control which can then get you killed = Turret armor seems low. Personally I use T to the same size of the my gun or larger if enemy has larger guns. TT is at T/3 round up. This pattern stopped me getting magazine detonations that killed the ship. I do sometimes see turrets blown out but the ship still sails. = I dont recommend having casemated guns for anti-MTB anti-DD. Casemates can get prvented by weather. Not sure how often that comes up in RTW3 and that rough weather also messes with DD. = colonial service no longer on, fair trade. It does score but its a % of hull. Its very useful on either big ships or low cost spammed ships. A mid size like this maybe or mabye not. IIRC +25% (?) so a 6,000 counts as 7,500. Enemy CA in the area still over powering it. = Maybe consider +500 tons shp for the above issue or returning to short range. Once parked off a colony you wouldnt be planning on needing to move it anyway. Having medium range could be saved for a response force with this being your main "protect key zones" ships.
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:55:03 GMT -6
Here is my minmaxed design for the 1890 start. Free weight is 50t or so. View AttachmentThe uniform all-round armour makes the ship resistant to pretty much everything. The only threat are lucky hits that cause water break-ins or fires. The 6in gun is the best gun in the game even for Battleships until the bigger quality 0 guns appear. The main artillery therefore is minimized. The ship has 6 torpedo tubes for the finishing blow. The large number of secondary guns means that you can operate without CLs and CAs. Which has the added benefit that the battle generator's only choice is to spawn your Bs all the time. = wtf ... ah... you wanted to max out 6" secondaries so min 7" to do that. also allows B grade armor on a 6" ship = So im not sure what guns you are aiming to armor against but 10-12" 1890 guns at... short ranges where your 6" can go to work. So yeah lots of amor. = Speed doesnt match concept. You really need to control the range to get 6" guns to play = Unit machinery is an option. You really should use it for this design. It preserves your speed better which you need to get into your preferred range. = very different concept so not really sure how well this will play out. likely woulndt use it myself.
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 14:58:21 GMT -6
Here is my design for the ship design contest and its text: 1st Design: 1920, no treaty, HMS Pursuer Also known as "Jacky Fisher's redemption". Always in pursuit of innovation, he created the first all-forward fast battleship that combines the best protection with actual protection. Ship design and name emphasize the continued self-image of the Royal Navy to be the one that routs the others. View Attachment= Good design = traditional forward armament = deck armor high for the era but thats understandable = increase the fire control to 3. you have lots of deck armor to fight at long range. youll need to keep accruacy up for that sort of fighting. = 4" spam is good spam. Its great on slowing DDs making their torp attacks not happen and converts to effecient DP guns for airplanes = secondary gun ammo a weird number while you have 90 tons free. on rebuilds secondary ammo is easy to change. Id max that out or bring to 200 or 250. = main gun ammo good +/- 5 as needed for any design tweaks
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Post by brygun on Nov 2, 2023 15:00:08 GMT -6
Okay thats it from me for now
bit late to the thread
hope you enjoy the discussions I've added.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 2, 2023 17:30:15 GMT -6
Okay thats it from me for now bit late to the thread hope you enjoy the discussions I've added.
My design team and I thank you for your observations and advice. We will take them under consideration. But I must warn you, NavWarSystems is not very receptive to knew ideas. Hope springs eternal.
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