Help with night battles

[menemene]

I need some help with figuring out the best way to fight night battles/send my light forces in for torpedo attacks without putting my capital ships in harms way.

I'm playing as Britain, and am fighting the second of two wars against Germany, it's currently 1942. The weather has been foul in the middle of winter, plus short days and long nights, leading to lots of engagements with poor visibility which favors the enemy's outnumbered forces.

As it is, the only way I seem to be able to get my light forces to conduct attacks and actually screen my capital ships is to get said capital ships (the formation leaders) into visual range of the enemy, and use the "flotilla attack" command. And even this doesn't work too well, because my expensive 1940's destroyers just charge the enemy and mill around them like headless chickens and don't fire concentrated torpedo salvos.

Just as an example to illustrate my current frustrations, here are two example scenarios:

First up: On a dark and stormy night with 4000m visibility, I have stumbled upon an enemy carrier force, escorted by some battlecruisers, at close range in the night. This is a dream scenario- I've finally caught those pesky aircraft carriers and have the chance to blow them out of the water.

What I want is for the armada of destroyers I have around my capital ships to head towards the enemy at full speed, saturate the area with torpedoes, and turn away. I am ahead of the enemy formation, I have them surprised, I should be able to absolutely demolish them. I've hit the flotilla attack button, and the destroyers are doing no such thing. One is getting rocked by close range gunfire, the others are turning away, and most importantly NOBODY IS SHOOTING ANY TORPEDOES!!!!!! I know it's at maximum range, but use the 36 knot speed I gave these ships to close the distance and then unleash. But I can't make it happen without leaving captain's mode and micromanaging everything.

An even more blatant situation is next. My battlecruiser line has caught up to a crippled German battleship at night after it was presumably damaged by carrier aircraft before sunset. It has one escorting destroyer.

For the love of all that is holy can we just blast it with torpedoes without having to individually close each destroyer to within 300 yards? I hit flotilla attack, and nothing happened, presumably because these are just radar contacts and there's no positive ID? What possible other ship could be infront of my advanced scouting line moving slowly after a day of airstrikes? Just shoot the damn thing. But no, I instead have to drive my ships within visual range, and then once it gets visually ID'd as German the escorts get 1/4 of a brain and charge it, only to mill around getting wrecked by it's secondaries without firing the devastating torpedo salvoes. And to rub salt in the wound the escorting destroyer fires a spread that hits two of my battlecruisers, which again were only this close so that I could get the damn destroyer screen to do their job.

How else should I approach these scenarios? Any tips for getting the AI to do what you want?

[spitfire97]

Switching the DD div role from "screen" to "support" and then "independent" when the attack commences is a good way of prompting a torpedo attack. Taking the division off AI control and positioning the DDs in a favourable launch position manually will also help. Once you want the div to retreat cancel flotilla attack and reassign them to "screen" or sometimes I even assign them to "core" temporarily to get them to disengage. It's not 100% reliable but it's better than just leaving it up to the AI

[garrisonchisholm]

Alternatively, my favorite night battle is a night battle I don't fight. They always seem like my ships are torpedo practice for the enemy. I make it a rule of thumb to decline all night actions, however I have to, to avoid handing out VPs.

[menemene]

Feb 26, 2024 20:14:28 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

Alternatively, my favorite night battle is a night battle I don't fight. They always seem like my ships are torpedo practice for the enemy. I make it a rule of thumb to decline all night actions, however I have to, to avoid handing out VPs.

 Is there a way to see what time of day the battle is fought at? I haven't found a way to tell when I get the opportunity to decline.

[garrisonchisholm]

Feb 26, 2024 21:45:16 GMT -6 menemene said:

Feb 26, 2024 20:14:28 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

Alternatively, my favorite night battle is a night battle I don't fight. They always seem like my ships are torpedo practice for the enemy. I make it a rule of thumb to decline all night actions, however I have to, to avoid handing out VPs.

 Is there a way to see what time of day the battle is fought at? I haven't found a way to tell when I get the opportunity to decline.

No, there is not- at present the game presumes that you might know the position and disposition of an enemy force but cannot be sure of when you might encounter them.  I was simply stating that I frequently "Bravely Ran Away", whenever I conclude that night would be the time of any action. 

[kriegsmeister]

What "difficulty" are you playing on? When it comes to it, I don't fight night battles unless I have blind fire radar or playing in captains mode and can individually control my light torpedo forces. Non-captains difficulty your best bet is to just Fleet turn away as soon as you can with flotilla attack active to use as a defensive screen if the enemy pursues you. It's not worth the risk to keep your flag Squadron searching around aimlessly.

[director]

The plain fact is that the AI is so good at sniping with torpedoes, scoring wildly unhistorical numbers of hits, that engaging in conditions of low visibility is extremely chancy.

I do accept those engagements, but I try to play for the long term. Maneuver constantly - your gunnery won't hit much and your ships will rarely launch successful torpedo attacks unless the enemy is disabled, but you will take fewer torpedoes in return.

If I have ships in a column, I try to get off a shot or two before checking the 'turn together' box and turning away from the enemy. You will probably lose contact, but you might not be torpedoed. Do not, ever, go more than one turn without a radical course change. The AI has almost supernatural abilities to know where you are, where you will be, and to snipe you with torpedoes. Your ships will rarely evade a torpedo attack, but the enemy will often evade as soon as you launch.

As soon as you make contact, set your Flotilla Attack flag. That may persuade the AI to turn away.

Accept that you will not hit much with gunfire and may not even launch torpedoes, no matter how favorable the angle. If you can get ahead of the enemy, that will both help you evade their torpedoes and hit with your own.

Crossing the T is a bad tactic in RtW. The developer holds that it is harder to hit a ship end-on with all your guns than for an end-on ship to hit yours with half of his. Just be warned.

Don't press too hard. The enemy will retreat, hoping you will pursue. If you do, he will spot you, and fire guns and torpedoes at you, a turn before you can fire back. Sometimes you can use that trick against the AI, falling back a bit to sucker them into an unwise pursuit.

If you can damage the enemy or sink a ship or two, fold your hand and walk away. Don't press your luck.

[akd]

The AI is not better than the player with torpedoes. This is just confirmation bias. You notice all the shots your side misses and only notice the hits by the AI. You ignore all the misses by the AI and feel their hits more acutely. The player is in a position to infinitely outperform the AI with torpedoes, even in Admiral’s mode, by exploiting AI weakness and predictably. Night simply reduces this advantage significantly, making outcomes more random.

[director]

The AI is not better than the player with torpedoes. This is just confirmation bias. You notice all the shots your side misses and only notice the hits by the AI. You ignore all the misses by the AI and feel their hits more acutely. The player is in a position to infinitely outperform the AI with torpedoes, even in Admiral’s mode, by exploiting AI weakness and predictably. Night simply reduces this advantage significantly, making outcomes more random.

I do not agree, and my opinion has been pretty constant over three editions. I am, however, immensely impressed that you have managed to observe my game-play and have such firm opinions on my failings.

There was, in all of modern naval history, one torpedo hit scored from a submerged tube. That was from HMS Rodney and the target was a motionless, unmaneuverable wreck. There are many more hits scored from submerged tubes in RtW, and against moving and maneuvering targets. You are entitled to your opinion... but I am also entitled to mine.

I'm playing the new Beta and I find it remarkably improved. Whether it is confirmation bias or not (I think not, but we all do), I'm enjoying playing the game again.

[wlbjork]

Sorry, Director, but all the time I've been playing RtW3, I can say that the only times my ships get hit by a torpedo is when I've made a mistake, either in maintaining course for too long when in torpedo range or when getting stuck into a short range knife fight.

That's playing in Admiral's mode as well, when - hypothetically - the ships under AI control should be more vulnerable to torpedoes.

[zederfflinger]

I'm a scummy captain's mode player, and nighttime knife fights are some of my favorite battles to fight. I know that the aren't especially realistic, but it's a lot of fun, I usually don't get hit much, and it's the best way to get a decisive win with an inferior force as well. That said, this is all pre-radar, I haven't played much late game.

I think the number of hits you can get with underwater tubes are completely unrealistic, but that's only because of how easy it is to get down to a few thousand yards without getting obliterated in the early game.

Once guns get a bit punchier, then underwater tubes get a lot less effective, though you still get to use them a bit when the AI goes mad.