1920 start, generated battleship cannot be refit due to triple turrets/hull too narrow

[grizzly95]

Just started a USA game from 1920, one of the battleship classes the game generated for me is basically a Pennsylvania Class clone, 12x 14in guns in triple turrets, TDS 2 and weighing 33,000 tons with a speed of 21 knots.

I cannot rebuild the ship at all because the game is saying that it's hull cannot exceed 18 knots/have triples in A or Y position due to being too narrow.




 

[akd]

Yup. I’ve checked my saves in a 1920 USA campaign (played from 1890), and several AI player ships violate this restriction. Seems AI designer gets to cheat on this somehow.

[larcrivereagle]

Just go to double guns in 6 centerline turrets (more turrets = higher chances of turrets being hit, which can be repaired and ship will take no structure or flotation damage, and less chance of shell hitting places that actually cause damage). Also, please armor the BE to around equal to B, hits there are devastating .
You should be able to get a significant amount of weight by lowering secondary armor to 3.5 (enough to resist splinters from 16" fire), cutting them down to two turrets (to further reduce the odds of being hit, and thus taking damage), and concentrating your ideal secondary battery in the maximum number of tertiary guns, which can't be armored and can't take hits, and thus can't take damage while being lighter.

[stevethecat]

Apr 5, 2024 8:20:07 GMT -6 larcrivereagle said:

Just go to double guns in 6 centerline turrets...

This is an AI prebuilt design generated at the start of a campaign, but due to the excessive restrictions in place it can't be modified legally by the player.

[Nicholas]

Apr 5, 2024 10:51:28 GMT -6 stevethecat said:

Apr 5, 2024 8:20:07 GMT -6 larcrivereagle said:

Just go to double guns in 6 centerline turrets...

This is an AI prebuilt design generated at the start of a campaign, but due to the excessive restrictions in place it can't be modified legally by the player.

I mean, couldn't ya swap out the 14 inch triple turrets with 18 inch guns in twins?

[tendravina]

You could, still insane because it highlights how this issue isn't just what we'd call "bad game mechanics", but also inconsistent and a potential for errors.

Although you get an objectively better ship by refitting 14-inch triples for 18-inch twins, that shouldn't be mandatory.

[Nicholas]

Apr 5, 2024 16:33:39 GMT -6 tendravina said:

You could, still insane because it highlights how this issue isn't just what we'd call "bad game mechanics", but also inconsistent and a potential for errors.

Although you get an objectively better ship by refitting 14-inch triples for 18-inch twins, that shouldn't be mandatory.

Eh, I'd call it "looking at history and seeing most 12 gun designs not pushing more than 21 knots except Poltava's speed trail". A 24 knot battleship with 8 18 inch guns is tame by comparison.

[grizzly95]

Apr 5, 2024 11:13:44 GMT -6 Nicholas said:

Apr 5, 2024 10:51:28 GMT -6 stevethecat said:

This is an AI prebuilt design generated at the start of a campaign, but due to the excessive restrictions in place it can't be modified legally by the player.

I mean, couldn't ya swap out the 14 inch triple turrets with 18 inch guns in twins?

The Treaty that was in effect at the start of the game didn't allow anything larger than 10in guns, so no I couldn't. I couldn't even add AA guns or upgrade the director or any of a few other things I could do at the outset of the campaign to those ships because it was always illegal due to the turret arrangement I had no part in. 

Regardless, my point really is that the AI is building ships we can't as a player despite the ship I have as a example being very much possible since the USN built a half a dozen very similarly spec'd ships in real life. Some refinement of the limits in the ship designer around triple turrets in A+Y positions is probably in order. 

[larcrivereagle]

Hm. With early B designs it's possible to make 3x2 main turret Bs that can't easily be refit once you get guns better than Q-2, the only way to do so is to rip out the non-standard centerline turret. Maybe if you remove the superimposed turrets it'll let you? I mean. It'd be kinda useless then, but still.

[grizzly95]

That's ignoring the issue though, as the AI is designing illegal ships is the issue. It's not game breaking but it is something that could (in my opinion) use some adjustment so you don't end up with designs like the one I had above where the ship should be completely possible really, yet the game is saying it isn't.

[dia]

Regardless of how you feel about the narrow hull restriction, this creating illegal legacy ships that the player can't refit is clearly a major bug.The player should not have to nerf a legacy ship because the AI created it with tech that didn't yet exist. Nor should the player have to wait to refit a ship until they research said tech. Considering I've had to wait until as late as 1933 before for this restriction to go away, I would argue that this is borderline game breaking. Imagine doing a 1920 start and having your most modern battleship be unable to go in for a refit for up to 13 years without having to remove guns for no logical reason.

[williammiller]

We will revisit this and examine the options, thanks.

[larcrivereagle]

It occurs to me that the simplest option is just to remove one rifle each from the A and Y turrets.

[tendravina]

Apr 6, 2024 12:31:22 GMT -6 larcrivereagle said:

It occurs to me that the simplest option is just to remove one rifle each from the A and Y turrets.

Doesn't work, you can only have the same turrets if same gun caliber

[grizzly95]

Apr 6, 2024 12:31:22 GMT -6 larcrivereagle said:

It occurs to me that the simplest option is just to remove one rifle each from the A and Y turrets.

Results in a illegal design still because of the treaty limits on gun caliber. I would have had to rearm the ship to 10in guns to be able to rebuild the turrets in any way. Believe me, I looked doing all of this.