ASW update suggestions

[attemptingsuccess]

Currently the way ASW works is the total # of ASW capable ships on Trade Protection reduces the effectiveness of subs against merchants and the # of ASW capable ships on Active Fleet reduces the effectiveness of subs against warships. Then, when a submarine attacks, a ship is chosen at random to attack the submarine, then, and only then does ASW score come into account. In comparison, Minelaying and Minesweeping occur every turn. This means that the most effective weapon against subs is mines, because they sink subs every turn. Minesweeping helps protect your subs from enemy mines as well as your ships. This means that the half ASW score reduction from MS is relatively unimportant, especially since the persecuting ships are chosen at random, meaning if you have good ASW ships, but a large number of fairly ineffective ships, then the high ASW ships are largely useless.

I suggest a few things to make ASW score more important
1. make ASW score instead of # of ships reduce sub effectiveness
2. make ships with a higher ASW score more likely to attack enemy subs
3. ships on with minesweeping gear have full ASW score but half score for deterring subs
4. allow TP ships to engage subs before attack
5. Possibly allow a tech, unlocking in 1943, called "Hunter Killer Teams" which applies a portion (10% or 25% possible variable on intelligence) of the ASW score towards sinking subs, regardless of attacks, if carriers are operating on TP duty.

This means that having better ASW ships will mean more enemy ships sunk and more subs deterred, making it more effective.

[wlbjork]

The problem is not just attacking the subs, but finding them in the first place.

That's why Britain built so many Escorts in WW2 - initially for convoy escort, then later for Hunter-Killer groups.

[attemptingsuccess]

Apr 24, 2024 21:34:03 GMT -6 wlbjork said:

The problem is not just attacking the subs, but finding them in the first place.

That's why Britain built so many Escorts in WW2 - initially for convoy escort, then later for Hunter-Killer groups.

I agree, the problem is finding subs, but ASW score has a lot more going into than just how effectively it can kill subs. It also factors in Time doing ASW work (which is why MS halves it), Depth Charge Supply (why extra depth charges increase it), Sonar (Enhanced Sonar system/ towed array). ASW score acts like it is a score for how well the ship can deter subs more than it is a flat can it kill subs rating. It only makes sense that this rating is used for deterring subs, I do think numbers are important, but effective ASW is too. 

[wlbjork]

Err...the Atlantic Ocean is some 106.5 million km^2 (41.1 million sq. miles). Early hydrophones and active sonar did increase detection range somewhat (and more importantly allow the detection of underwater vessels), but to not much more than a mile or two - not even 1% of the area needed to cover as well as being on a relatively limited arc rather than 360 degrees.

That's one of the reasons the air-dropped sonar-buoy was developed - to increase the distance from the ship at which a contact can be detected. Likewise the massive towed hydrophone arrays for passive detection - S2087, part of CAPTAS-4, is the current British model and weighs in the range of 20-34t and is rated to detect sounds up to 150km away (making an area of roughly 70,500km^2 centred on the ship...which is still a tiny part of the Atlantic Ocean).

You can argue that ships with detection equipment should have a slightly better chance of attacking a sub in the first place, but by and large the model is well designed and logical.

[attemptingsuccess]

The entire Atlantic Ocean is 106.5 million km^2, but the part that makes up Northeastern Europe is only about 1 million km^2, which is the area you are actually searching for subs in (since that's where all the merchants are), but that is beside the point. I'm not saying you won't need ships. You will quite definitely need ships, I'm saying that I don't think a 200 ton corvette and a 2000 ton ASW destroyer with ASW torpedoes and helicopters should have the same effect in deterring attacks. That's an extreme example, but do you get what I'm getting at here? A ship designed to have a higher ASW score is going to have better sensors/more depth charges/better ability to spot subs with helicopters/etc. On top of that, better ASW ships will make sub commanders more cautious knowing that the enemy ships can kill them very effectively. Currently, if you have the weight, MS gear is a no brainer because having more ASW score won't actually kill subs. Two things kill subs, Aircraft, and mines. Surface ships really don't. As long as you have ships on TP duty to deter attacks you will be fine. Look at this page that breaks down U boat sinkings by cause (uboat.net/fates/losses/cause.htm) aircraft and ships are roughly equal, mines only sink 35. In game however, mines have a chance of sinking subs every turn, same with planes, surface ships only sink subs after they attack. Only then does ASW score come into account, and with MS gear it is half ASW score, but it's still ASW score. Also, because the persecuting ship is random, if most ship don't have highest possible ASW score, then the ships that do have score won't actually sink that many subs, since they rarely get chosen.

Also these ships post 1912 are protecting convoys, which subs will attack, meaning that they have to search an even smaller area.

[wlbjork]

That might be true today, but in WW2? You pretty much had to steam over a submarine to know it was there. In WW1, if a submarine was submerged you had no way of knowing it was there.

Also consider that although we are told the ship assignment is random, that doesn't automatically follow that all the ships in the area have the same chance of being selected - though it could actually be weighted in favour of the fastest ships.

However, I would point out that if you build plenty of high capability ASW assets, it doesn't matter what the criteria is as you'll always have a high capability ship attacking the Enemy. My own preference is plenty of 900t ASW KEs with every piece of ASW equipment I have researched, with 1,000t KEs for MSW duties - and I usually find that nets me plenty of submarine kills.

[attemptingsuccess]

You're right, I just felt it weird that ASW didn't play into submarine deterrence.

I do still think that we should be able to have hunter-killer groups, where if ships with aircraft or helicopters are on ASW duty then a portion of your ASW score, or perhaps a certain number of ships, weighted towards heavy ASW ships can actively hunt subs. In WW2 escort carriers were used to find submarines which were then killed by escorting destroyers.

[wlbjork]

You do get HK groups though - it's just handled automatically out of 'spare' TP capacity, completely forgot to mention that.

It's one of several things that appears in the RtW2 manual, but not 3 - but AFAIK it hasn't been removed.

[attemptingsuccess]

If it isn't in it should be added, if it is in then it should be noted.