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Post by generalvikus on Apr 25, 2024 4:45:22 GMT -6
Hey guys,
I've just got back into playing for the first time since pre-battle reorganization was added and I'm trying to figure out best practices for carrier operations. I've organized my CVs into divisions of two, set the lead CV division as core on the fleet flag, and all other CV divisions supporting the flagship with everything else on screen. This produced a far from ideal result, with my ships forming a messy sort of train rather than any recognizable circular formations. Does anyone have a better way of doing things?
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 25, 2024 15:24:51 GMT -6
Eh, I'd suggest setting up the CVs in divisions of four instead of two. Less of a hassle I'd think and unless one of them is damaged or sunk you've got a division of four CVs with upwards of 100 planes each for 400 planes to fight with and even if you're down one CV that's still three CVs for a total of 300 planes. In short, think American Fast Carrier Task Force not the Japanese 1st Air Fleet.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 25, 2024 15:49:13 GMT -6
There wasn't anything really wrong with the IJN carrier doctrine. They had problem with building carriers, our code breaking capability, and pilot training; just to name a few. Operational complexity also contributed to the failures of their carriers. One real problem was the fact that they could not build carriers as fast as we could and they could not carry as many aircraft. All these factors contributed to their later carrier battle losses. Their fleet configuration was not that bad.
We lost Lexington, and Yorktown by the middle of June 1942. They lost four of theirs. But later we lost Hornet and Wasp. So, the losses were equal. Eventually, at Guadalcanal we only had one carrier- Enterprise- left. But we could replace those losses faster than they could. Don't judge their carrier fleet configuration by Midway. They had four carriers and we had two along with one unsinkable carrier- Midway. We knew they were coming and planned for it. They shouldn't have conducted the Alaskan operation and used those two carriers to protect the four fleet carriers, things would have been much different.
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Post by attemptingsuccess on Apr 25, 2024 17:41:00 GMT -6
Eh, I'd suggest setting up the CVs in divisions of four instead of two. Less of a hassle I'd think and unless one of them is damaged or sunk you've got a division of four CVs with upwards of 100 planes each for 400 planes to fight with and even if you're down one CV that's still three CVs for a total of 300 planes. In short, think American Fast Carrier Task Force not the Japanese 1st Air Fleet. No, CVs only group in groups of two, if you want to have 4 CV in a group have two groups of two attached to each other. If you put four in a divisions they will be split up automatically |
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Post by generalvikus on Apr 26, 2024 5:22:22 GMT -6
Note that in all of the battles since I made this post, I had a CV division as the leader of the carrier force, and it worked a lot better.
However, I still have some major tactical problems. Chiefly, I would like to know how to reliably create both a battle force and a scout force in addition to the CV force, if that's possible. I've found that battleships sailing as part of the CV force are not very useful, because they can't be detached to fight an enemy and thereby actually keep them away from the carriers. And then on top of that, I want another surface force for protecting invasion transports, because on several occasions I've sent my main force to fight the enemy main force, only to have my transports battered by a single DD or CA. On one occasion, the IJN pulled such a perfect Leyte on me that you'd think they planned it - their battleships drew mine away and then a large force of cruisers swooped in and annihilated my transports. I'm not complaining - it was really cool - but still, a scout force would be great.
Obviously, simply sailing the battle line, the invasion fleet, and the carrier force all together is possible, but far from ideal, due to aircraft operations, and I try to play realistically - i.e. my carriers keep sailing towards a predetermined recovery point after launching a strike.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2024 7:30:05 GMT -6
Note that in all of the battles since I made this post, I had a CV division as the leader of the carrier force, and it worked a lot better. However, I still have some major tactical problems. Chiefly, I would like to know how to reliably create both a battle force and a scout force in addition to the CV force, if that's possible. I've found that battleships sailing as part of the CV force are not very useful, because they can't be detached to fight an enemy and thereby actually keep them away from the carriers. And then on top of that, I want another surface force for protecting invasion transports, because on several occasions I've sent my main force to fight the enemy main force, only to have my transports battered by a single DD or CA. On one occasion, the IJN pulled such a perfect Leyte on me that you'd think they planned it - their battleships drew mine away and then a large force of cruisers swooped in and annihilated my transports. I'm not complaining - it was really cool - but still, a scout force would be great. Obviously, simply sailing the battle line, the invasion fleet, and the carrier force all together is possible, but far from ideal, due to aircraft operations, and I try to play realistically - i.e. my carriers keep sailing towards a predetermined recovery point after launching a strike.
Examine this document and see if it helps to understand the surface doctrine you might want. The author is a very well respected naval historian and has been in many videos about the War in the Pacific.
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Post by generalvikus on Apr 26, 2024 7:41:15 GMT -6
Examine this document and see if it helps to understand the surface doctrine you might want. The author is a very well respected naval historian and has been in many videos about the War in the Pacific.
Thank you for the historical document, I haven't seen it before and I'm sure I will enjoy it, but in this case I know what I want to achieve (that is, have a battle force, a scout force, and a carrier force all in the same battle consistently,) and I just want to know how to get the game to do it using the division editor. I say this because I think two independent surface formations is the necessary minimum; either to defend both the carrier force and the invasion force, or to effectively engage an enemy element while still protecting an invasion force. I assume it is also the maximum, because there are no other forces available in the game. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2024 7:59:47 GMT -6
Examine this document and see if it helps to understand the surface doctrine you might want. The author is a very well respected naval historian and has been in many videos about the War in the Pacific.
Thank you for the historical document, I haven't seen it before and I'm sure I will enjoy it, but in this case I know what I want to achieve (that is, have a battle force, a scout force, and a carrier force all in the same battle consistently,) and I just want to know how to get the game to do it using the division editor. I say this because I think two independent surface formations is the necessary minimum; either to defend both the carrier force and the invasion force, or to effectively engage an enemy element while still protecting an invasion force. I assume it is also the maximum, because there are no other forces available in the game.
Can't you use the Division editor. and create two different Carrier division configurations then test them against each other in a fleet exercise? This is how the US Navy did it using table top games.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2024 12:12:32 GMT -6
Just some pearls of wisdom about tactical carrier configuration. Carriers are "egg shells armed with hammers". If you are concerned about stopping an attack, don't have all your carriers in one basket. The other alternative is, of course, concentration. This tactical formation shares CAP and gets mutual support from AAA. It also makes coordination of strikes easier as the strike can form up easier and proceed to the target.
You could assemble a strike force with one carrier and use it as bait, then assemble the other with all the rest of the carriers and then, when the first strike force is attacked, then use the second to pounce on the enemies attack force.
There are many avenues to follow, and sometimes one works and then it fails the next.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 26, 2024 15:12:23 GMT -6
Here is my first attempt at fleet division assignments:
Be gentle, 
Update: I attempted to perform a fleet exercise. But I cannot use the existing divisions that I created in the above division assignments. That is a problem, IMHO>
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 27, 2024 11:20:44 GMT -6
Here is my first attempt at fleet division assignments:
Be gentle,
Update: I attempted to perform a fleet exercise. But I cannot use the existing divisions that I created in the above division assignments. That is a problem, IMHO>
It pays to have a permanent screening and scouting force for the CVs. With the CVs, have DD and cruiser divisions set to screen for the CV divisions and if your cruisers have floatplanes and/or radar then set additional cruiser divisions to scouting divisions, probably with their own screening DD divisions. Edit: Oh, and set one of your CV divisions to Independent and have the second CV division set to follow the independent CV division or as a core division. |
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Post by oldpop2000 on Apr 27, 2024 13:06:54 GMT -6
Here is my first attempt at fleet division assignments:
Be gentle,
Update: I attempted to perform a fleet exercise. But I cannot use the existing divisions that I created in the above division assignments. That is a problem, IMHO>
It pays to have a permanent screening and scouting force for the CVs. With the CVs, have DD and cruiser divisions set to screen for the CV divisions and if your cruisers have floatplanes and/or radar then set additional cruiser divisions to scouting divisions, probably with their own screening DD divisions. Edit: Oh, and set one of your CV divisions to Independent and have the second CV division set to follow the independent CV division or as a core division. I just changed the roles as per your suggestion.
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 27, 2024 13:28:16 GMT -6
It pays to have a permanent screening and scouting force for the CVs. With the CVs, have DD and cruiser divisions set to screen for the CV divisions and if your cruisers have floatplanes and/or radar then set additional cruiser divisions to scouting divisions, probably with their own screening DD divisions. Edit: Oh, and set one of your CV divisions to Independent and have the second CV division set to follow the independent CV division or as a core division. I just changed the roles as per your suggestion.
Ok I should have probably shown an example of what I'm talking about and here it is.  Take note of 1st Carrier Division. I'll admit I'm playing around with CVLs, but I play on slow aircraft development so it's what I've got. 1st Carrier Division is composed of 4 CVLs. Screening for 1st Carrier Division is 2nd Cruiser Division, 1st Light Cruiser Division and 1st Destroyer Division. Scouting for 1st Carrier Division is 1st Cruiser Division with 2nd Destroyer Division serving as 1st Cruiser Division's screening element, unseen in the image above. An additional CL division would also be assigned as a scouting division attached to 1st Carrier Division with a third DD division as their screening element. If I attached a BC division to 1st Carrier Division they would be an additional screens with their own screening DD division. That is what I am talking about. |
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Post by generalvikus on Apr 27, 2024 21:46:22 GMT -6
Ok I should have probably shown an example of what I'm talking about and here it is. View AttachmentTake note of 1st Carrier Division. I'll admit I'm playing around with CVLs, but I play on slow aircraft development so it's what I've got. 1st Carrier Division is composed of 4 CVLs. Screening for 1st Carrier Division is 2nd Cruiser Division, 1st Light Cruiser Division and 1st Destroyer Division. Scouting for 1st Carrier Division is 1st Cruiser Division with 2nd Destroyer Division serving as 1st Cruiser Division's screening element, unseen in the image above. An additional CL division would also be assigned as a scouting division attached to 1st Carrier Division with a third DD division as their screening element. If I attached a BC division to 1st Carrier Division they would be an additional screens with their own screening DD division. That is what I am talking about. Are scouting divisions assigned to the scout force, and if so, do they create a scout force if there wouldn't otherwise be one? |
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Post by Nicholas on Apr 27, 2024 23:36:01 GMT -6
Ok I should have probably shown an example of what I'm talking about and here it is. View AttachmentTake note of 1st Carrier Division. I'll admit I'm playing around with CVLs, but I play on slow aircraft development so it's what I've got. 1st Carrier Division is composed of 4 CVLs. Screening for 1st Carrier Division is 2nd Cruiser Division, 1st Light Cruiser Division and 1st Destroyer Division. Scouting for 1st Carrier Division is 1st Cruiser Division with 2nd Destroyer Division serving as 1st Cruiser Division's screening element, unseen in the image above. An additional CL division would also be assigned as a scouting division attached to 1st Carrier Division with a third DD division as their screening element. If I attached a BC division to 1st Carrier Division they would be an additional screens with their own screening DD division. That is what I am talking about. Are scouting divisions assigned to the scout force, and if so, do they create a scout force if there wouldn't otherwise be one? Ain't sure, I'm going to say no. Back when I'm playing with BB and BC divisions I'd have an independent BB division in the home area and another wherever I'm seeing enemy BBs and have my BC divisions set to independent. With game settings set to prefer large fleet battles, I'd see an increase of fleet battles where the independent BB division is set as the main battlefleet while the independent BC division is set as the scout force and operate independently from the main battlefleet. Take what I'm spewing with a ton of salt. Edit: Looking at the image I'd posted, I'm fairly sure I could get an independent battlefleet of BBs, an independent scouting force of BCs and an independent CV division with supporting divisions. Not consistently mind you even with the game set to prefer large fleet battles, but the pieces are there. |
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