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Post by christian on Apr 29, 2024 7:00:19 GMT -6
Functionally, this would be a long range submarine with 1-2 or 3-4 floatplanes (1940s tech adds ability for 4 planes instead of 2 and allows them to carry light and medium bombs, that is the submarines stores have bombs)
This submarine would cost twice as much as a long range submarine, but can provide the fleet with reconnaissance and light bombing capacity, additionally it would be more efficient at sinking merchant ships, due to the enhanced range of attack given by floatplanes, and the ability to spot, and move to attack convoys it otherwise could not have seen.
Several submarines, mostly experimental, had floatplanes as early as 1918 with the British HMS M2, later examples such as the American tests with S1 submarines with floatplanes, or the French surcouf, or later the widespread japanese use of floatplane equipped submarines, and the larger I-400 floatplane submarine (though this was not the most common type in japanese service, most had a singular plane)
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Post by director on May 5, 2024 15:24:10 GMT -6
Yes, this was a real thing. However, did anyone get any scouting use from the floatplanes?
My belief is that it was impossible to keep air recon up consistently because there weren't enough planes. If you are waiting for some sign (like funnel smoke) to launch the search planes, then the captain has to balance remaining on the surface to launch and recover a plane versus submerging to avoid detection or moving on the surface to attack.
From what I've heard, most of the subs had their floatplanes pulled early in the war. I think the Japanese used the hangars for supply storage and Surcouf, of course, was thought to be not worth repairing before she sank.
Would you care to discuss how you think these subs would be used?
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Post by blarglol on May 7, 2024 12:45:23 GMT -6
Honestly I'm just not sure how useful such vessels would be. As director stated, all of these aerial experiments pretty much failed. I think the Japanese used one of their sub-launched floatplanes to drop a few small bombs on the US, but how valuable is that? The concept wasn't a very good one simply because launching and recovering the aircraft put the sub at risk by taking away it's main defense: stealth underwater. Having floatplanes on larger surface vessels was just a better concept.
The plane and the sub would have to be on precisely the same schedule to meet up again, to say nothing if hostiles found and attacked the sub while the plane was away. This is without mentioning any of the design comprises that would certainly have to be made to fit, provision, and keep serviceable an aircraft on a submarine.
In short, this is one of those things that might be "cool" to see in game for novelty sake, something you use once or twice just to have it around, but not a priority. The value you could get isn't worth it honestly, and we have much larger changes and bugs to address in the game.
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Post by brygun on May 7, 2024 12:49:01 GMT -6
Sub launched helicopters with spec ops teams... mmmmmmmm
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Post by christian on May 8, 2024 23:41:19 GMT -6
Honestly I'm just not sure how useful such vessels would be. As director stated, all of these aerial experiments pretty much failed. I think the Japanese used one of their sub-launched floatplanes to drop a few small bombs on the US, but how valuable is that? The concept wasn't a very good one simply because launching and recovering the aircraft put the sub at risk by taking away it's main defense: stealth underwater. Having floatplanes on larger surface vessels was just a better concept. The plane and the sub would have to be on precisely the same schedule to meet up again, to say nothing if hostiles found and attacked the sub while the plane was away. This is without mentioning any of the design comprises that would certainly have to be made to fit, provision, and keep serviceable an aircraft on a submarine. In short, this is one of those things that might be "cool" to see in game for novelty sake, something you use once or twice just to have it around, but not a priority. The value you could get isn't worth it honestly, and we have much larger changes and bugs to address in the game. Id disagree pretty heavily calling submarine launched scouts a failure, they were generally quite appreciated by the subs who had them due to the increased ability to locate enemy merchants and convoys from far longer range than the submarine could see. the intention is not to make the submarine able to airstrike targets, the intention is to add a submarine which can carry aircraft, essentially making it into a "pocket AV" which also sinks merchants, and much like how raiders massively benefit from floatplanes, i see no reason why subs shouldnt. |
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Post by christian on May 8, 2024 23:43:50 GMT -6
Yes, this was a real thing. However, did anyone get any scouting use from the floatplanes? My belief is that it was impossible to keep air recon up consistently because there weren't enough planes. If you are waiting for some sign (like funnel smoke) to launch the search planes, then the captain has to balance remaining on the surface to launch and recover a plane versus submerging to avoid detection or moving on the surface to attack. From what I've heard, most of the subs had their floatplanes pulled early in the war. I think the Japanese used the hangars for supply storage and Surcouf, of course, was thought to be not worth repairing before she sank. Would you care to discuss how you think these subs would be used? Yes much like how graf spee made very good use of her floatplane, the floatplanes were used quite alot by japanese submarines to help locate targets. as i mentioned above this isent a suggestion to add strike aircraft to subs, its a way to make submarines that can raid better due to better scout planes, and submarines that can support the fleet better due to being able to act like mini AVs |
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Post by blarglol on May 9, 2024 9:38:50 GMT -6
Honestly I'm just not sure how useful such vessels would be. As director stated, all of these aerial experiments pretty much failed. I think the Japanese used one of their sub-launched floatplanes to drop a few small bombs on the US, but how valuable is that? The concept wasn't a very good one simply because launching and recovering the aircraft put the sub at risk by taking away it's main defense: stealth underwater. Having floatplanes on larger surface vessels was just a better concept. The plane and the sub would have to be on precisely the same schedule to meet up again, to say nothing if hostiles found and attacked the sub while the plane was away. This is without mentioning any of the design comprises that would certainly have to be made to fit, provision, and keep serviceable an aircraft on a submarine. In short, this is one of those things that might be "cool" to see in game for novelty sake, something you use once or twice just to have it around, but not a priority. The value you could get isn't worth it honestly, and we have much larger changes and bugs to address in the game. Id disagree pretty heavily calling submarine launched scouts a failure, they were generally quite appreciated by the subs who had them due to the increased ability to locate enemy merchants and convoys from far longer range than the submarine could see. Do you have any sources on Japanese A,B, or later J -type boats? It's my understanding they are the primary examples of the type of boat you are talking about, and that the aircraft ultimately caused more problems than the benefits they provided. |
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Post by avimimus on May 9, 2024 11:38:45 GMT -6
I'd like Fleet submarines as well - make them much more expensive in return for a slightly higher chance they'll appear in fleet engagements.
On the scouting angle: It's also be neat if carrying floatplanes was a boost to merchant raiders (as it was in real life).
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Post by blarglol on May 9, 2024 16:55:50 GMT -6
I'd like Fleet submarines as well - make them much more expensive in return for a slightly higher chance they'll appear in fleet engagements. On the scouting angle: It's also be neat if carrying floatplanes was a boost to merchant raiders (as it was in real life). 1. Subs of all types already have a chance of appearing in battle. I'm not sure what a new "SF" type or whatnot would actually be. Fleet boats are already largely considered medium subs, SS in-game. SLs are considered cruiser subs like the Type IX U-Boats, US V-Boats, Japanese Type B submarines, etc. The archetypal fleet boat would inhabit some sort of awkward niche in between them. Indeed, some sources would even consider US fleet boats (particularly later classes like the Gato or Balao) to be comparable to the range and performance of cruiser submarines...
2. I believe floatplanes do boost merchant raiders....
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Post by attemptingsuccess on May 9, 2024 20:27:42 GMT -6
SSL/SS already exist if you want specific fleet boats.
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Post by brygun on May 16, 2024 16:46:32 GMT -6
SSV could be used for an aviation capable sub with increased odds of finding targets over cost.
on the SSL...
... after all my play throughs I am still baffled what if any benefit there is to the SSL. There isn't any indicator if they are better or worse than anything else. I only build a few due to this uncertainity.
On the effectivess of the real world SSV Im curious on sources as I really don't know. The IJN on defeat did a lot to destroy their records rather than hand them over. It would be really hard to know if a merchant sunk by a sub had first be spotted by its plane that vectored the sub onto target.
I do recall that for some of the IJN floatplane subs they were gun cruiser subs expecting to bombard USA coastal cities. The floatplane then acting as a spotter to direct fire. Never happened in war time though. However, the plane scouting for a follow up submerged attack is hard to know.
Wasn't there some crazy German thing about a copter/gyro or something to be towed by a sub for increase spotting distance? IIRC abandoned as damn crazy. If it was daylight for them to see the enemy planes could see the sub too.
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Post by ludovic on May 16, 2024 20:59:34 GMT -6
Sub launched helicopters with spec ops teams... mmmmmmmm That just made me think that there should be more spec op flexibility in general, where better techs and/or building ships and aircraft that are better at it should allow you greater chances to succeed at sabotage or even allow you to carry out acts of sabotage while at war, although the latter would quickly deviate into an overly abstracted game if the AI can do the same. |
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Post by brygun on May 16, 2024 21:34:42 GMT -6
Sub launched helicopters with spec ops teams... mmmmmmmm That just made me think that there should be more spec op flexibility in general, where better techs and/or building ships and aircraft that are better at it should allow you greater chances to succeed at sabotage or even allow you to carry out acts of sabotage while at war, although the latter would quickly deviate into an overly abstracted game if the AI can do the same. Ships with Colonial service could be considered to have such equipment. As to the game mechanism for it? I dunno. Just the idea being nifty. Maybe some VP boosts by "Special Forces conduct raid" = +XX victory points = bonus to tech Y. = enemy ship damaged in port (small chance sunk) = Enemy Transport(s) crippled (+ TR sunk this turn) |
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