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Post by attemptingsuccess on Apr 29, 2024 9:46:55 GMT -6
Currently AFAIK Submarines can not hunt other submarines. This is ahistorical, especially once you get into the 50s and 60s.
1. Give subs (SS, SSL, and SSC only, Minelaying and Missile subs only use ASW to counter enemy subs/get less ASW) an ASW value that applies each turn either when "acoustic torpedoes" unlock or when "wire guided torpedoes" unlock
2. Pre unlocking of acoustic torpedoes/wire guided torpedoes subs should have a chance to make their attacks against a submarine just as they do for surface ships.
3. (possibly) have a very rare event pre acoustic torpedoes/wire guided torpedoes where if you have unassigned/very good-brilliant/torpedo expert then you can get an event Captain [NAME] of SS-[Name/Number] has managed to torpedo an enemy submarine while both subs were submerged (+fleet morale, +Prestige, enemy sub sunk)
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Post by brygun on May 3, 2024 18:19:09 GMT -6
Well... thoughts...
WW2 the extremely rare sub on sub was very isolated incidents. What comes to mind are more accidental as in one sub was underwater when it heard the other transiting on the surface. The original poster suggests the quality of the Captain for this area which I disagree with as it was more random luck to even have a possible encounter than the officer having substantial skill. It was an ambush not a duel. Effectively before acoustics its a nill or near zero event.
So really only once you have acoustic torpedoes could sub on sub be practical. Then the subs could count for ASW in the regions they are in. A small factor as sub on sub encounters aren't as frequent as dealing with air craft or ASW screens. A splash screen of "our sub sunk their sub" is quite possible with a picture of some sort.
Query on how minelaying subs, any era, already interact with the sub hit a mine messages. Submarine minelayers could be laying mines set for subs not surface ships. Later mines launch small acoustic homing torpedoes though Im not sure the era for that (insert oldpop research here).
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Post by attemptingsuccess on May 3, 2024 18:59:06 GMT -6
Well... thoughts... WW2 the extremely rare sub on sub was very isolated incidents. What comes to mind are more accidental as in one sub was underwater when it heard the other transiting on the surface. The original poster suggests the quality of the Captain for this area which I disagree with as it was more random luck to even have a possible encounter than the officer having substantial skill. It was an ambush not a duel. Effectively before acoustics its a nill or near zero event. So really only once you have acoustic torpedoes could sub on sub be practical. Then the subs could count for ASW in the regions they are in. A small factor as sub on sub encounters aren't as frequent as dealing with air craft or ASW screens. A splash screen of "our sub sunk their sub" is quite possible with a picture of some sort. Query on how minelaying subs, any era, already interact with the sub hit a mine messages. Submarine minelayers could be laying mines set for subs not surface ships. Later mines launch small acoustic homing torpedoes though Im not sure the era for that (insert oldpop research here). Mines already hit subs (It's actually the most effective ASW tactic since it applies every turn and doesn't require like 3 different chances to pass to actually apply, I guess you could add a tech that models ASW mines (cold war era speciallized versions, not the 1908 tech which models contact mines being placed at varying depths. I know the rarity of submerged sub hits pre acoustic torpedoes, hence the (possibly). I thought it might be a fun idea where you have a tiny chance compounded by having an unassigned brilliant or very good torpedo expert. The idea is a brilliant/very good torpedo expert would be able to do the torpedo calculations and hydrophone tactics well enough to even have a chance. It's only supposed to happen once per every few games. |
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Post by brygun on May 3, 2024 22:13:23 GMT -6
I know the rarity of submerged sub hits pre acoustic torpedoes, hence the (possibly). I thought it might be a fun idea where you have a tiny chance compounded by having an unassigned brilliant or very good torpedo expert. The idea is a brilliant/very good torpedo expert would be able to do the torpedo calculations and hydrophone tactics well enough to even have a chance. It's only supposed to happen once per every few games. My for pre-acoustic counterpoints are 1) that torpedo expert doesnt really matter as its more a random ambush. The launching sub remained undetected so it wouldnt have mattered if it took 45 seconds or 60 seconds to get the data. 2) there isn't any sub captain quality in the game >>> With acoustic torps I agree on the subs adding to the ASW where they are in a small way. If I was a sub captain attacking an area I am much more worried about the planes on long patrols dropping passive listening bouys or magnetic detectors my sub would have no idea they are there. An enemy sub is scarier than a surface ship though as the surface ships make a lot more noise. Could see subs on "Fleet Support" getting to add even more ASW scores. This would be a good counterpoint to pulling them off attacking merchants. |
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Post by attemptingsuccess on May 4, 2024 10:56:48 GMT -6
I know the rarity of submerged sub hits pre acoustic torpedoes, hence the (possibly). I thought it might be a fun idea where you have a tiny chance compounded by having an unassigned brilliant or very good torpedo expert. The idea is a brilliant/very good torpedo expert would be able to do the torpedo calculations and hydrophone tactics well enough to even have a chance. It's only supposed to happen once per every few games. My for pre-acoustic counterpoints are 1) that torpedo expert doesnt really matter as its more a random ambush. The launching sub remained undetected so it wouldnt have mattered if it took 45 seconds or 60 seconds to get the data. 2) there isn't any sub captain quality in the game >>> With acoustic torps I agree on the subs adding to the ASW where they are in a small way. If I was a sub captain attacking an area I am much more worried about the planes on long patrols dropping passive listening bouys or magnetic detectors my sub would have no idea they are there. An enemy sub is scarier than a surface ship though as the surface ships make a lot more noise. Could see subs on "Fleet Support" getting to add even more ASW scores. This would be a good counterpoint to pulling them off attacking merchants. Yeah, I was thinking that ASW subs would make normal SS a lot more useful, since currently Missile Submarines are the best type of subs to build for sinking anything, especially merchants. Historically nations build both missile and normal submarines. Having subs hunt subs would make them a lot more useful. I thought it would be a good idea for subs to have a small chance to attack other subs to model subs hitting subs on the surface, this should probably stop once an enemy nation unlocks snorkels. There is no sub captain quality, and I wouldn't suggest it's addition for this alone. Torpedo expert is probably the closest you can get. Furthermore, calculation time isn't the issue, it's whether you can calculate the solution at all. Hitting a submerged submarine with a torpedo means that you heard it on hydrophones, estimated distance, course, speed, depth, any defensive maneuvers it might make, etc. All of that is very difficult and requires someone with good knowledge of torpedoes and the systems used to aim them. If this event is to be added, then a brilliant or very good torpedo expert should be the captain that has the chance to do it. Besides, it further compounds the low chance for this event to occur. |
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Post by avimimus on May 9, 2024 11:40:53 GMT -6
In WWI a major role for British submarines was to wait for departing U-boats and try to ambush them. Where it was effective is another question, but it was doctrine. They even had an entire class built for this purpose... in WWI!
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Post by blarglol on May 9, 2024 16:58:04 GMT -6
In WWI a major role for British submarines was to wait for departing U-boats and try to ambush them. Where it was effective is another question, but it was doctrine. They even had an entire class built for this purpose... in WWI! I know they certainly did that in WWII as well. However the central question is - how to model such a thing in game without it becoming overpowered and overly-influential on the greater balance of submarine warfare. There are already people saying subs are not good enough in RTW3, and this is without them being targeted by other subs. |
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Post by attemptingsuccess on May 9, 2024 20:33:45 GMT -6
I do think non missile subs should be slightly more effective at their roles, I also think that subs should be able to hit other subs (and those subs should be able to fight back). It only boosts subs and makes having a large number of SS worth it post 1956. Honestly the whole ASW system needs a look over. ASW on warships in pretty much solely defensive and ships can't actually hit subs, unlike air ASW and mines. Given the prevalence of hunter killer groups during WW2 and in the post war years, this makes not a lot of sense. I feel like given the importance of subs in WW2 and in the cold war the system should be a bit more involved.
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