Please overhaul submarines

[golingarf]

I know it's late to request major changes to game mechanics, but better late than never. Submarines need to be overhauled.

I'm reading in the discord that you just made the AI not build SSG because they were too good, and now the best players are saying to completely ignore ASW throughout the entire game.

The whole system where your good ASW ships have a low chance of catching submarines just because you have bad ASW ships also - but you have to have lots of bad ASW ships because number of hulls is what really matters - is not a good system.

I can suggest ways to do it if there's any interest. I believe that it should start with having some kind of modeling, even if it's abstract, of how many merchant ships exist and are not confined to port.

[attemptingsuccess]

I definitely agree that the current system needs something of a revamp, and I've made a few suggestions about this before. Honestly, I think this is one of the things they most need to work on in this game.

1. SS and SSC should be able to hunt other subs. I made a suggestion about this a bit back, and I find it a little ridiculous that they currently can't do one of their primary roles today.

2. SS, SSC, and SSM need to be more effective. Currently there seems to be two types of subs, SS, SSC, and SSM which do nothing, and SSG, which kill every target in sight, which means you never use anything else. I think SSG should be brought down somewhat, and SS, SSC, and SSM should be more effective. It felt like in RTW2 you could have SSC, which kill merchants, SS, which can kill merchants but are more cost inefficient than SSC, but kill ships better, and SSM which give mines. Now, in RTW3 it feels like they do nothing for you.

3. Hunter Killer groups should exist post ~1942. Hunter Killer groups should mean that if you have a carrier (helocopter or fixed wing) then some amount of excess destroyers should be using their ASW to actively hunt subs, instead of passively reacting to attacks. No wonder ASW is so weird when escort ships are using 1900 era tactics in 1970

4. I would propose that ASW score is also used for deterring sub attacks. Basically, instead of having a # of ships to hit you have a certain ASW score. ASW score involves a lot of things, and some things just assist killing subs (like K-guns and ASW morter) but other things, like extra depth charges, and not having MS gear giving ASW value implies that it also includes amount of time on station, something that would be valuable for deterrence.

This should make ASW gear a lot more important, and make having ASW a lot more worthwhile.

[golingarf]

Jun 13, 2024 11:15:10 GMT -6 attemptingsuccess said:

...

3. Hunter Killer groups should exist post ~1942. Hunter Killer groups should mean that if you have a carrier (helocopter or fixed wing) then some amount of excess destroyers should be using their ASW to actively hunt subs, instead of passively reacting to attacks. No wonder ASW is so weird when escort ships are using 1900 era tactics in 1970

4. I would propose that ASW score is also used for deterring sub attacks. Basically, instead of having a # of ships to hit you have a certain ASW score. ASW score involves a lot of things, and some things just assist killing subs (like K-guns and ASW morter) but other things, like extra depth charges, and not having MS gear giving ASW value implies that it also includes amount of time on station, something that would be valuable for deterrence.

This should make ASW gear a lot more important, and make having ASW a lot more worthwhile.

3. I would definitely like to see wolfpacks and hunter-killer groups. I would add that the carriers used for ASW should have to have aircraft.

4. I like this too. I think that low ASW ships should deter advanced submarines minimally, if at all.


I would add to all this that I think the workings of the system should be revealed to the player, and not just be one of those mysterious things in the background that we never get feedback about.

[attemptingsuccess]

The current system is described in the manual thankfully, "For the purposes of submarine attacks on merchant shipping, the numbers of ASW
capable ships assigned to trade protection in the area the submarine operates will be used as a modifier. After attacking, there is a chance that the sub will be attacked by trade protection vessels. A random vessel in the area is selected, and its ASW rating is used as the basis for the attack." but if it's changed then it will definitely have to be written down somewhere

[attemptingsuccess]

I've thought about this system a bit more and have come up with what I believe would be a better system than the current one, at least one that is more accurate to history and allows for better ship ASW.

General Suggestions
1. The game should track # of merchant ships so that submarines aren't sinking infinite merchant ships. A certain portion should be fuel, the rest cargo. If you lose too many fuel ships you have a fuel shortage, too many cargo ships and your population gets mad. Some ships are built every month. If you are losing too many ships you should get an event that states "we are losing too many merchants to the submarine menace, should we divert funds to build more merchants? (y/n)" which costs funds but massively increases the number of merchant ships created per month.

2. The game should track how many merchants are in an area in a certain month, whether or not it tracks overall numbers

3. Ship based helicopters and carrier based aircraft should contribute to air ASW in the sea zone the ship is in

4. Submarines (specifically SSC, SS, and SSL) post Wire Guided Torpedoes should have ASW that applies every turn

The way ship ASW works should change somewhat depending on the tech/era.

Era 1 is Pre- Convoy. This era is where ship ASW acts most like the current system. A sub has a high chance to make an attack against a lone merchant. After the attack, there is a chance that an ASW escort can intercept, after which ASW score determines if it can kill the sub. This has a very low chance of success. More escorts reduce the chance that a sub will attack.

Era 2 is Post-Convoy, Pre-Wolfpack. The game sorts merchants into convoys and assigns escorts (ASW and gun) randomly to the convoys, some ships are not in convoys. Subs have a low chance to either attack a single ship or a convoy. When they attack a convoy, they can attack more than one merchant, depending on sub type (SSC have lowest # of tubes, meaning low chance of attacking multiple merchants, SSL highest #, so they can attack more merchants), multiple ASW escorts can attack the sub, more escorts and more ASW value on those escorts reduces chance of the sub to attack, and increases the chance that the sub will be discovered before it can attack (skipping attack and moving straight to ASW counterattack). Subs can attack the same convoy again if ASW escorts fail to sink them, this chance increases with reliability and sub type (SSC->SSM/SS->SSL).

Era 3 is Post-Wolfpack, Pre-Improved ASW tactics. Now, when a sub attacks a convoy, it calls more submarines to also attack the convoy. (post Shipborne HF/DF escorts can attack this sub, preventing extra subs from attacking). Extra subs means that less escorts are assigned to attack each submarine that gets attacked by the escorts, it also means that more merchants get sunk as more submarines attack. There is a higher chance to re-attack convoys

Era 4 is Post Improved ASW tactics.
Improved ASW tactics should give a higher chance for submarines to be attacked and sunk by escorts, but it should also add Hunter/Killer(H/K) groups and escort groups. Pre-era 4, escorts above the necessary amount in a sea zone are randomly assigned to convoys. In Era 4, once more than the necessary number of escorts in a sea zone are present, escorts are assigned to escort groups. These escort groups are assigned when a sub re-attacks a convoy. H/K groups are groups of escorts centered around a (heli)carrier. These escorts’ ASW score is applied to hunt subs every turn. Extra escorts are assigned to H/K groups first, escort groups second.

For attacks on ships on AF, a division is chosen, escorts are assigned to the division, and then the sub attacks a ship in the group (sub attacks 1BX, 1BX is escorted by 1CA, 1Cl, 1,2,3DD. Sub attacks a CA in 1CA, damages the ship, 3 DDs attack the sub, sub is sunk by DD).

If a Raider attacks a convoy, the game rolls to see if the raider continues the attack (adjusted by raider size and escort size), if it attacks then the game generates a convoy battle. (This will have to be tested to see if the convoy battles are too overbearing.) If it doesn’t attack, and a cruiser is present there is a chance to generate a raider battle.

I tried to make changes that would improve the way ship ASW works while also maintaining enough abstraction. I am not a coder so I don’t know how complicated this would be to implement.

[golingarf]

Jun 16, 2024 15:03:17 GMT -6 attemptingsuccess said:

I've thought about this system a bit more and have come up with what I believe would be a better system than the current one, at least one that is more accurate to history and allows for better ship ASW.

General Suggestions
1. The game should track # of merchant ships so that submarines aren't sinking infinite merchant ships. A certain portion should be fuel, the rest cargo. If you lose too many fuel ships you have a fuel shortage, too many cargo ships and your population gets mad. Some ships are built every month. If you are losing too many ships you should get an event that states "we are losing too many merchants to the submarine menace, should we divert funds to build more merchants? (y/n)" which costs funds but massively increases the number of merchant ships created per month.

2. The game should track how many merchants are in an area in a certain month, whether or not it tracks overall numbers

3. Ship based helicopters and carrier based aircraft should contribute to air ASW in the sea zone the ship is in

4. Submarines (specifically SSC, SS, and SSL) post Wire Guided Torpedoes should have ASW that applies every turn

The way ship ASW works should change somewhat depending on the tech/era.

Era 1 is Pre- Convoy. This era is where ship ASW acts most like the current system. A sub has a high chance to make an attack against a lone merchant. After the attack, there is a chance that an ASW escort can intercept, after which ASW score determines if it can kill the sub. This has a very low chance of success. More escorts reduce the chance that a sub will attack.

Era 2 is Post-Convoy, Pre-Wolfpack. The game sorts merchants into convoys and assigns escorts (ASW and gun) randomly to the convoys, some ships are not in convoys. Subs have a low chance to either attack a single ship or a convoy. When they attack a convoy, they can attack more than one merchant, depending on sub type (SSC have lowest # of tubes, meaning low chance of attacking multiple merchants, SSL highest #, so they can attack more merchants), multiple ASW escorts can attack the sub, more escorts and more ASW value on those escorts reduces chance of the sub to attack, and increases the chance that the sub will be discovered before it can attack (skipping attack and moving straight to ASW counterattack). Subs can attack the same convoy again if ASW escorts fail to sink them, this chance increases with reliability and sub type (SSC->SSM/SS->SSL).

Era 3 is Post-Wolfpack, Pre-Improved ASW tactics. Now, when a sub attacks a convoy, it calls more submarines to also attack the convoy. (post Shipborne HF/DF escorts can attack this sub, preventing extra subs from attacking). Extra subs means that less escorts are assigned to attack each submarine that gets attacked by the escorts, it also means that more merchants get sunk as more submarines attack. There is a higher chance to re-attack convoys

Era 4 is Post Improved ASW tactics.
Improved ASW tactics should give a higher chance for submarines to be attacked and sunk by escorts, but it should also add Hunter/Killer(H/K) groups and escort groups. Pre-era 4, escorts above the necessary amount in a sea zone are randomly assigned to convoys. In Era 4, once more than the necessary number of escorts in a sea zone are present, escorts are assigned to escort groups. These escort groups are assigned when a sub re-attacks a convoy. H/K groups are groups of escorts centered around a (heli)carrier. These escorts’ ASW score is applied to hunt subs every turn. Extra escorts are assigned to H/K groups first, escort groups second.

For attacks on ships on AF, a division is chosen, escorts are assigned to the division, and then the sub attacks a ship in the group (sub attacks 1BX, 1BX is escorted by 1CA, 1Cl, 1,2,3DD. Sub attacks a CA in 1CA, damages the ship, 3 DDs attack the sub, sub is sunk by DD).

If a Raider attacks a convoy, the game rolls to see if the raider continues the attack (adjusted by raider size and escort size), if it attacks then the game generates a convoy battle. (This will have to be tested to see if the convoy battles are too overbearing.) If it doesn’t attack, and a cruiser is present there is a chance to generate a raider battle.

I tried to make changes that would improve the way ship ASW works while also maintaining enough abstraction. I am not a coder so I don’t know how complicated this would be to implement.

I think this is the right gist. On point 1 (as I said before) the game needs to have some kind of attempt to model the merchant marine, even if it's very abstract.
A couple years ago in RTW2 I did this as Italy against Austria-Hungary:

Obviously, there should have just been a saturation point where AH was blockaded by submarines. It doesn't really have 266 ships per month to lose, and even if it did, they wouldn't go out with that level of threat.

Since then, submarines were nerfed, so this extreme result is harder to obtain. But:
(1) it's still possible in principle, and
(2) they were nerfed to the point that ASW is almost worthless. (Its worthlessness also has a lot to do with the details of how submarine warfare rolls happen - particularly that ships "block" submarines before there is a pursuit roll, and that the pursuit is done by a random ASW-capable ship, so the more important goal of having many ASW-capable ships obviates the idea of having some good ASW ships.)

Finally, the fact that everything is completely behind the scenes makes the submarine war tedious and uninteresting to play. I do hope they will actually consider a fundamental overhaul, as it's the place where the most value can be added to the game.