Post by attemptingsuccess on Jun 26, 2024 21:50:10 GMT -6
Why?
Currently you have two different ASW system, the Mine and Aircraft ASW system, and the ship ASW system, this suggestion mainly focuses on the later. Aircraft and Mine ASW sinks subs every turn based on the air ASW number or the number of Mines. Ship ASW is different. First, a merchant is attacked, than the game checks if a ship attacks the sub that attacked the merchant, then a ship is chosen to attack. Combine all of the above with the fact that more ASW ships means less sub attacks, the result is that the most effective tactic is to spam escorts with MS and mines so you drive up minelaying to sink subs and stop mines from taking out your own subs. This is not how subs worked historically and it isn't interesting for such a large part of historical naval wars. Especially since the only information you get is a few pop-ups about corvettes being sunk in spirited gun duels and a trade warfare screen that lists how many merchants and subs were sunk.
Goals:
Improve Ship ASW
Make the system more historical
Make the system more interesting
Major Additions:
Modeled Merchant Marine
Sub Designing Screen
New Ship ASW system
How:
Modeled Merchant Marine:
The game should track how many merchant ships and oilers each nation has, and of what types, as well as how many merchants and oilers are in each area at a time.
# of merchants in an area could be calculated by calculating tonnage normal trade needed based on possessions in region and possessions of nations with low tension (higher tension=less trade, lower tension=more trade), calculate the percentage of merchant ships in each region based on the necessary FS tonnage in that region, except for home regions which get the lions share of the trade, a small number of ships are in other sea regions without possessions (For example Italy might have 85% of trade in the Med, 10% in the Indian Ocean, and 5% distributed throughout the rest of the map). The rest of the necessary tonnage is made up of neutral and low-tension nation's merchant ships. Each region also has a minimum necessary tonnage, which is significantly below normal and represents the minimum tonnage for everything to function with rationing. When the home region gets less than normal tonnage unrest goes up slightly (just 1-2 points when it happens, goes back when you go above normal), when it goes below minimum it goes up dramatically and you are likely to have a revolt. If non home regions get less than minimum than you get mutinies, crew level decreases, and you have a chance to start with less ammunition, torpedoes, missiles.
# of oilers is calculated based on the # of ships in an area and if an area has an oil producing possession in it. Oil goes from oil producing possessions to the nation that owns them to other nations that nation has low tensions with. Each nation could has an oil stockpile measured in months, and if you don't get enough oil it starts going down and the lower the higher chance that ships won't join a battle due to lack of fuel.
An amount of ships, based on base resources should be built each year, and ships should be retired based on their age, the longer a ship exists for the higher chance for it to be retired (a very low chance from construction to represent peacetime accidents, increasing gradually once the ship is ~30 years old, chance at construction for retiring is lower the higher damage control tech you have, chance for retirement for all merchants drops to that ships chance for retiring at construction during wartime to represent ships not being scrapped during war when they are needed.)
Ships are split into Passenger, Large Merchant/Oiler, Medium Merchant/Oiler, Small Merchant/Oiler. Passenger ships are a small number of fast, large ships that are available for things such as carrier conversions or large, fast minelayers, constructed through an event where you can choose whether or not to fund their construction, Large Merchants/Oilers vary from 15,000 or max dockyard-10,000 tons, Medium Merchant/Oiler vary from 10,000-5,000 tons, Small Merchant/Oiler vary from 5,000-2,000 tons. AMC conversions are taken from this pool. If it is possible, each of these is a class in the Merchant Marine screen so you can rebuild them into standardized AMC conversions so you don't have to convert 1-1, when war ends ships are returned to the Merchant pool.
In ~1915 a tech unlocks called Defensively Armed Merchant Ships. This arms a portion of Merchant ships with light self defense weapons. The longer a war goes on the more are armed, no ships are armed post 1950. More ships are armed if you remove guns from a ship. Small Merchants get 2-4 inch guns, Medium Merchants get 4-5 inch guns, Large Merchants get 5-6 inch guns.
Sub Designing System
This should be a lot shorter
Instead of the current build a Sub of either SSC, SS, SSM, SSL, SSG which then gets the current reliability rating I propose a new system.
Now there is a submarine designing system that works like the aircraft designing system.
You choose a type of sub and then get a few prototypes that get various stats:
Tubes: # of tubes, determines how many merchants it can sink in one attack, or how much damage it can do to a surface ship
Stowage: # of torpedoes in stowage
Detection:Ability to find targets, ASW destroyers get this too, and it is separate to ASW score
Silencing: Ability to evade detection
Maneuverability: Ability to avoid attacks
Surfaced Speed: determines ability to chase down convoys pre-snorkle
Submerged Speed: determines ability to chase down convoys post-snorkle
Reliability: Chance to Sink to accident, availability
This is mostly so we have variable stats to use in the Ship ASW system
New ASW System
Currently Ship ASW never changes. That's not how Ship ASW works.
However some are changes to the system that applies in all eras
Carriers and helicopters now contribute to Air ASW in an area, as the aircraft patrol the area
Subs on Prize Rules get less attack opportunities per turn, and are significantly more likely to fail to sink alone merchants (ship not carrying contraband), convoys are attacked as normal
Every turn each sub roll to see if it finds a target, modified by Reliability and Detection and Intellegence (on enemy and enemy on you), after each attack another role is performed, but there is a smaller chance to find another target after every target found.
Subs sunk by ships or their aircraft should appear in the ship's history
Ships sunk by subs should appear in that sub's history
Sinking subs should give VP
Raiders have a chance to not attack a convoy if it is chosen as their target, especially if it assigned a cruiser or a battleship as escort. If it does attack an escorted convoy, than a convoy battle is created, where AF ships have the option to intervene.
ASW score is split in two, Detection, and ASW. ASW determines ability to sink subs, detection determines ability to find subs. Silencing helps subs hide.
Era 1 is Pre-Convoy:
This is the current system. Each Merchant sails alone, meaning there are a lot of targets in a sea zone. When a merchant is attacked there is a chance for a ASW capable escort to respond and attempt to attack the sub. Most sub attacks are surfaced using deck guns unless against warships or against faster merchants.
Era 2 is Post-Convoy, Pre-Wolfpack:
Merchants are split into convoys comprised of merchants with similar speeds (ex. 18-15 knots, 15-12 knots, 12-8knots) and escorts with similar or faster speeds (12 knot corvettes shouldn't escort 18 knot merchants). This means less targets for submarines, increasing the chance to sink nothing at all (each convoy or single ship counts as a single target for a sub to attack). When a sub attacks a convoy it can attack multiple merchants depending on merchant size or number of tubes. Before and after attack escorts roll to see if they detect the sub, with an increased chance to find the sub post attack. If a sub is detected it is attacked by some portion of the escorts, generally 2-3. If the submarine escapes the escorts, than it has an opportunity to attack the convoy again, if the sub is faster than the convoy. Subs attack lone, unarmed merchants with their deck guns. DEMS can sometimes be attacked with a deck gun, but then there is a chance for that ship to sink the sub.
Post Carriers:
If a carrier is part of the escorts of a convoy, it's aircraft have a chance to find and attack a sub before it attacks, this prevents the sub from attacking the convoy.
Era 3 is Post-Wolfpack, Pre-Advanced ASW tactics
SS, SSM, and SSL are sorted into wolfpacks. Each sub rolls to see if it finds a target, and when a sub finds a convoy, all subs in the wolfpack have a chance to attack the convoy, increased by surface speed. If Shipborne HF/DF is unlocked the escorts have a chance to detect and attack the detection sub, and if it is sunk than the wolfpack has a significantly reduced chance per sub to attack. If a sub in a wolfpack attacks a single merchant the wolfpack does not join them. When a wolfpack attacks a convoy, the wolfpack and escorts are split into groups (8 submarines vs. 4 escorts and 16 merchants, 2 escorts face 4 subs, thus for those 4 subs the convoy escort is only 2 ships). When a sub attacks a convoy it can attack multiple merchants depending on merchant size or number of tubes. Before and after attack escorts assigned to the sub roll to see if they detect the sub, with an increased chance to find the sub post attack. Subs can reattack the convoy and a higher chance of doing so compared to pre-wolfpack.
Era 4 is Post-Advanced ASW tactics, Pre-Snorkle
Advanced ASW tactics do improve the chance for detecting subs and sinking subs, however they should also add Hunter-Killer groups and escort groups. Once this unlocks, instead of extra escorts in an area being assigned to convoys, they are added into either Hunter-Killer groups or Escort Groups. Hunter-Killer groups are centered on an Aircraft or Helicopter carriers along with a number of fast escorts (+25 knots). Every Turn the carrier roles for it's aircraft to find submarines which are then attacked by surface ships in the H/K group. Escort Groups are groups of fast escorts unattached to convoys. If escorts in a convoy detect a wolfpack sub detecting them (with H/K gear) or if they are attacked by submarines, than Escort Groups are assigned to the convoy when the wolfpack attacks/reattacks. This means escorts concentrate on attacked convoys.
Era 5 is Post Snorkle, Pre Wire Guided Torpedo
Snorkle tech should be moved to 1943, I get why it is unlocked when it is, but very few subs had snorkles in 1937, I would put wide adoption in about 1943/44. Snorkles significantly drop air detection, however submerged speed is used instead for the purposes of chasing down convoys and responding to wolfpack detections. This reduces the number of subs attacking convoys and the chance for subs to attack the same convoy again. Subs no longer attack with their deck gun, even against lone, unarmed, merchants, as they no longer have a deck gun. Prize Rules is no longer an option.
Era 6 is Post Wire Guided Torpedo
Wire Guided Torpedoes allow subs to hunt other subs. Subs on fleet support are assigned as escorts to convoys and fleets to defend against submarines. Subs on unrestricted hunt subs similar to aircraft and mines where they role to detect and sink submarines every turn.
Attacks on Fleets work separately from attacks on merchants. Subs choose a ship to attack, and then that ship is given escorts, either assigned automatically or the escorts assigned to that ship's division on the division's screen. Than the sub roles to see what ship it attacks in the group, weighted towards the larger warships. Escorts role to detect and attack the sub prior to and after the attack. When the sub attacks the warship, each torpedo tube individually roles to see if it hits, misses, or hits an alternate target. After the number of hits is determined, it is determined whether or not the ship sinks or how long it takes to repair.
New ASW Tab and events:
Instead of an end of turn report on ASW, ASW information should be moved to a tab on the main page next to submarines. This page lists what convoys existed last turn, their escort numbers, and how many subs attacked, and how many were sunk. It should also list how many subs were attacked and sunk by aircraft.
If a sub sinks a large amount of merchants, it should be shown off in an event which increases fleet morale. (SSL U-23 commanded by [Generated Officer Name] Has sunk X amount of tonnage, earning him great fame, fleet morale increases)/ However, if a high scoring sub is sunk than the nation that sunk it should get a morale boost (We have finally sunk the dastardly SSL U-23, along with it's captain [Generated Officer Name], fleet morale up), and the nation that it belonged to should lose morale (The great [Generated Officer Name] in SSL U-23 has been sunk in a glorious duel with the enemy, fleet morale down).
This is mostly my dream ASW system, I don't know the feasibility, I'm just trying to suggest ideas if it is overhauled, which it really needs to be.
Currently you have two different ASW system, the Mine and Aircraft ASW system, and the ship ASW system, this suggestion mainly focuses on the later. Aircraft and Mine ASW sinks subs every turn based on the air ASW number or the number of Mines. Ship ASW is different. First, a merchant is attacked, than the game checks if a ship attacks the sub that attacked the merchant, then a ship is chosen to attack. Combine all of the above with the fact that more ASW ships means less sub attacks, the result is that the most effective tactic is to spam escorts with MS and mines so you drive up minelaying to sink subs and stop mines from taking out your own subs. This is not how subs worked historically and it isn't interesting for such a large part of historical naval wars. Especially since the only information you get is a few pop-ups about corvettes being sunk in spirited gun duels and a trade warfare screen that lists how many merchants and subs were sunk.
Goals:
Improve Ship ASW
Make the system more historical
Make the system more interesting
Major Additions:
Modeled Merchant Marine
Sub Designing Screen
New Ship ASW system
How:
Modeled Merchant Marine:
The game should track how many merchant ships and oilers each nation has, and of what types, as well as how many merchants and oilers are in each area at a time.
# of merchants in an area could be calculated by calculating tonnage normal trade needed based on possessions in region and possessions of nations with low tension (higher tension=less trade, lower tension=more trade), calculate the percentage of merchant ships in each region based on the necessary FS tonnage in that region, except for home regions which get the lions share of the trade, a small number of ships are in other sea regions without possessions (For example Italy might have 85% of trade in the Med, 10% in the Indian Ocean, and 5% distributed throughout the rest of the map). The rest of the necessary tonnage is made up of neutral and low-tension nation's merchant ships. Each region also has a minimum necessary tonnage, which is significantly below normal and represents the minimum tonnage for everything to function with rationing. When the home region gets less than normal tonnage unrest goes up slightly (just 1-2 points when it happens, goes back when you go above normal), when it goes below minimum it goes up dramatically and you are likely to have a revolt. If non home regions get less than minimum than you get mutinies, crew level decreases, and you have a chance to start with less ammunition, torpedoes, missiles.
# of oilers is calculated based on the # of ships in an area and if an area has an oil producing possession in it. Oil goes from oil producing possessions to the nation that owns them to other nations that nation has low tensions with. Each nation could has an oil stockpile measured in months, and if you don't get enough oil it starts going down and the lower the higher chance that ships won't join a battle due to lack of fuel.
An amount of ships, based on base resources should be built each year, and ships should be retired based on their age, the longer a ship exists for the higher chance for it to be retired (a very low chance from construction to represent peacetime accidents, increasing gradually once the ship is ~30 years old, chance at construction for retiring is lower the higher damage control tech you have, chance for retirement for all merchants drops to that ships chance for retiring at construction during wartime to represent ships not being scrapped during war when they are needed.)
Ships are split into Passenger, Large Merchant/Oiler, Medium Merchant/Oiler, Small Merchant/Oiler. Passenger ships are a small number of fast, large ships that are available for things such as carrier conversions or large, fast minelayers, constructed through an event where you can choose whether or not to fund their construction, Large Merchants/Oilers vary from 15,000 or max dockyard-10,000 tons, Medium Merchant/Oiler vary from 10,000-5,000 tons, Small Merchant/Oiler vary from 5,000-2,000 tons. AMC conversions are taken from this pool. If it is possible, each of these is a class in the Merchant Marine screen so you can rebuild them into standardized AMC conversions so you don't have to convert 1-1, when war ends ships are returned to the Merchant pool.
In ~1915 a tech unlocks called Defensively Armed Merchant Ships. This arms a portion of Merchant ships with light self defense weapons. The longer a war goes on the more are armed, no ships are armed post 1950. More ships are armed if you remove guns from a ship. Small Merchants get 2-4 inch guns, Medium Merchants get 4-5 inch guns, Large Merchants get 5-6 inch guns.
Sub Designing System
This should be a lot shorter
Instead of the current build a Sub of either SSC, SS, SSM, SSL, SSG which then gets the current reliability rating I propose a new system.
Now there is a submarine designing system that works like the aircraft designing system.
You choose a type of sub and then get a few prototypes that get various stats:
Tubes: # of tubes, determines how many merchants it can sink in one attack, or how much damage it can do to a surface ship
Stowage: # of torpedoes in stowage
Detection:Ability to find targets, ASW destroyers get this too, and it is separate to ASW score
Silencing: Ability to evade detection
Maneuverability: Ability to avoid attacks
Surfaced Speed: determines ability to chase down convoys pre-snorkle
Submerged Speed: determines ability to chase down convoys post-snorkle
Reliability: Chance to Sink to accident, availability
This is mostly so we have variable stats to use in the Ship ASW system
New ASW System
Currently Ship ASW never changes. That's not how Ship ASW works.
However some are changes to the system that applies in all eras
Carriers and helicopters now contribute to Air ASW in an area, as the aircraft patrol the area
Subs on Prize Rules get less attack opportunities per turn, and are significantly more likely to fail to sink alone merchants (ship not carrying contraband), convoys are attacked as normal
Every turn each sub roll to see if it finds a target, modified by Reliability and Detection and Intellegence (on enemy and enemy on you), after each attack another role is performed, but there is a smaller chance to find another target after every target found.
Subs sunk by ships or their aircraft should appear in the ship's history
Ships sunk by subs should appear in that sub's history
Sinking subs should give VP
Raiders have a chance to not attack a convoy if it is chosen as their target, especially if it assigned a cruiser or a battleship as escort. If it does attack an escorted convoy, than a convoy battle is created, where AF ships have the option to intervene.
ASW score is split in two, Detection, and ASW. ASW determines ability to sink subs, detection determines ability to find subs. Silencing helps subs hide.
Era 1 is Pre-Convoy:
This is the current system. Each Merchant sails alone, meaning there are a lot of targets in a sea zone. When a merchant is attacked there is a chance for a ASW capable escort to respond and attempt to attack the sub. Most sub attacks are surfaced using deck guns unless against warships or against faster merchants.
Era 2 is Post-Convoy, Pre-Wolfpack:
Merchants are split into convoys comprised of merchants with similar speeds (ex. 18-15 knots, 15-12 knots, 12-8knots) and escorts with similar or faster speeds (12 knot corvettes shouldn't escort 18 knot merchants). This means less targets for submarines, increasing the chance to sink nothing at all (each convoy or single ship counts as a single target for a sub to attack). When a sub attacks a convoy it can attack multiple merchants depending on merchant size or number of tubes. Before and after attack escorts roll to see if they detect the sub, with an increased chance to find the sub post attack. If a sub is detected it is attacked by some portion of the escorts, generally 2-3. If the submarine escapes the escorts, than it has an opportunity to attack the convoy again, if the sub is faster than the convoy. Subs attack lone, unarmed merchants with their deck guns. DEMS can sometimes be attacked with a deck gun, but then there is a chance for that ship to sink the sub.
Post Carriers:
If a carrier is part of the escorts of a convoy, it's aircraft have a chance to find and attack a sub before it attacks, this prevents the sub from attacking the convoy.
Era 3 is Post-Wolfpack, Pre-Advanced ASW tactics
SS, SSM, and SSL are sorted into wolfpacks. Each sub rolls to see if it finds a target, and when a sub finds a convoy, all subs in the wolfpack have a chance to attack the convoy, increased by surface speed. If Shipborne HF/DF is unlocked the escorts have a chance to detect and attack the detection sub, and if it is sunk than the wolfpack has a significantly reduced chance per sub to attack. If a sub in a wolfpack attacks a single merchant the wolfpack does not join them. When a wolfpack attacks a convoy, the wolfpack and escorts are split into groups (8 submarines vs. 4 escorts and 16 merchants, 2 escorts face 4 subs, thus for those 4 subs the convoy escort is only 2 ships). When a sub attacks a convoy it can attack multiple merchants depending on merchant size or number of tubes. Before and after attack escorts assigned to the sub roll to see if they detect the sub, with an increased chance to find the sub post attack. Subs can reattack the convoy and a higher chance of doing so compared to pre-wolfpack.
Era 4 is Post-Advanced ASW tactics, Pre-Snorkle
Advanced ASW tactics do improve the chance for detecting subs and sinking subs, however they should also add Hunter-Killer groups and escort groups. Once this unlocks, instead of extra escorts in an area being assigned to convoys, they are added into either Hunter-Killer groups or Escort Groups. Hunter-Killer groups are centered on an Aircraft or Helicopter carriers along with a number of fast escorts (+25 knots). Every Turn the carrier roles for it's aircraft to find submarines which are then attacked by surface ships in the H/K group. Escort Groups are groups of fast escorts unattached to convoys. If escorts in a convoy detect a wolfpack sub detecting them (with H/K gear) or if they are attacked by submarines, than Escort Groups are assigned to the convoy when the wolfpack attacks/reattacks. This means escorts concentrate on attacked convoys.
Era 5 is Post Snorkle, Pre Wire Guided Torpedo
Snorkle tech should be moved to 1943, I get why it is unlocked when it is, but very few subs had snorkles in 1937, I would put wide adoption in about 1943/44. Snorkles significantly drop air detection, however submerged speed is used instead for the purposes of chasing down convoys and responding to wolfpack detections. This reduces the number of subs attacking convoys and the chance for subs to attack the same convoy again. Subs no longer attack with their deck gun, even against lone, unarmed, merchants, as they no longer have a deck gun. Prize Rules is no longer an option.
Era 6 is Post Wire Guided Torpedo
Wire Guided Torpedoes allow subs to hunt other subs. Subs on fleet support are assigned as escorts to convoys and fleets to defend against submarines. Subs on unrestricted hunt subs similar to aircraft and mines where they role to detect and sink submarines every turn.
Attacks on Fleets work separately from attacks on merchants. Subs choose a ship to attack, and then that ship is given escorts, either assigned automatically or the escorts assigned to that ship's division on the division's screen. Than the sub roles to see what ship it attacks in the group, weighted towards the larger warships. Escorts role to detect and attack the sub prior to and after the attack. When the sub attacks the warship, each torpedo tube individually roles to see if it hits, misses, or hits an alternate target. After the number of hits is determined, it is determined whether or not the ship sinks or how long it takes to repair.
New ASW Tab and events:
Instead of an end of turn report on ASW, ASW information should be moved to a tab on the main page next to submarines. This page lists what convoys existed last turn, their escort numbers, and how many subs attacked, and how many were sunk. It should also list how many subs were attacked and sunk by aircraft.
If a sub sinks a large amount of merchants, it should be shown off in an event which increases fleet morale. (SSL U-23 commanded by [Generated Officer Name] Has sunk X amount of tonnage, earning him great fame, fleet morale increases)/ However, if a high scoring sub is sunk than the nation that sunk it should get a morale boost (We have finally sunk the dastardly SSL U-23, along with it's captain [Generated Officer Name], fleet morale up), and the nation that it belonged to should lose morale (The great [Generated Officer Name] in SSL U-23 has been sunk in a glorious duel with the enemy, fleet morale down).
This is mostly my dream ASW system, I don't know the feasibility, I'm just trying to suggest ideas if it is overhauled, which it really needs to be.