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Post by blarglol on Jul 23, 2024 17:58:36 GMT -6
Curious how you use colonial service. I usually save it for KEs and CLs, but I was wondering if anyone uses it on CAs?
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Post by golingarf on Jul 24, 2024 7:25:25 GMT -6
It seems like a waste of tonnage. (Except for KE, because the characteristics of a KE do not seem to matter.)
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 24, 2024 11:28:12 GMT -6
Curious how you use colonial service. I usually save it for KEs and CLs, but I was wondering if anyone uses it on CAs? Considering one of the roles of a cruiser is to cruise distant waters I typically have my cruisers (CLs, CAs and BCs) designed with colonial service, especially when playing as a country with colonial tonnage requirements, i.e. the British. A few years ago I made a table to figure out the relation between displacement and colonial tonnage and have since adopted a 3,000 tonnage design philosophy. Long story short, my CAs typically displace 15,000 tons to fulfill tonnage requirements around the world and deal with the occasional B while my BCs that I intend on keeping displace 24,000 tons, 27,000 tons, 30,000 tons, 33,000 tons, and then up to 45,000 tons. Seems like a waste of space for KEs considering how little they displace, but then again I don't deal with KEs all that much to begin with. |
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Echo
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by Echo on Jul 24, 2024 13:34:56 GMT -6
Currently, I use colonial service on 1600 t KEs for double FS tonnage as safety margin. Given that I have yet to lose a single one of them, I'm considering to lower their displacement, possibly all the way down to 800 t (though in this case I guess I'll make 20% or more than the bare minimum needed to cover FS tonnage and keep the extra ones mothballed). I let the AI sort them out as I assign them to foreign station (I'm too lazy to send them manually).
If I ever am in the mood to fight my enemies in their home waters (in a different sea zone than my home waters), then I try to acquire possessions there, I expand them, and I send elements of my fleet. This means that I have on station more tonnage than required, which in turn means not only that colonial service is superfluous on those ships, but also that it's an hindrance since it uses tonnage that's better spent in firepower/armor/speed.
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Post by golingarf on Jul 24, 2024 16:25:24 GMT -6
Currently, I use colonial service on 1600 t KEs for double FS tonnage as safety margin. Given that I have yet to lose a single one of them, I'm considering to lower their displacement, possibly all the way down to 800 t (though in this case I guess I'll make 20% or more than the bare minimum needed to cover FS tonnage and keep the extra ones mothballed). I let the AI sort them out as I assign them to foreign station (I', too lazy to send them manually). If I ever am in the mood to fight my enemies in their home waters (in a different sea zone than my home waters), then I try to acquire possessions there, I expand them, and I send elements of my fleet. This means that I have on station more tonnage than required, which in turn means not only that colonial service is superfluous on those ships, but also that it's an hindrance since it uses tonnage that's better spent in firepower/armor/speed. KE over 1000 tons are a dubious investment as their minesweeping capability maxes out at that displacement, and no matter how you build them, they will still get mowed down in droves by submarine guns. Don't underestimate how high those submarine gunners' spirits are. |
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Post by kriegsmeister on Jul 24, 2024 20:09:41 GMT -6
If I'm doing a more "historical" playthrough I'll add colonial service to pretty much every cruiser. But more often then not I don't bother, I rarely build dedicated foreign stations ships or keep fleet ships outside home areas unless I'm trying to raise tensions. I usually just stick (very) old Cruisers and Destroyers on FS trying to keep a ~25-33% margin over actual necessary capacity in case of losses in a war.
The primitives don't really care if the gunboats sitting off shore quelling their rebellion is actually 47 years old and made of more rust than steel at this point.
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Echo
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by Echo on Jul 25, 2024 0:34:03 GMT -6
KE over 1000 tons are a dubious investment as their minesweeping capability maxes out at that displacement, and no matter how you build them, they will still get mowed down in droves by submarine guns. Don't underestimate how high those submarine gunners' spirits are. Yes, I'm aware of that, but thanks for bringing it up anyway! The casual player may not know about it. It happens to the base ASW value, too. I only tested on DDs, but they are: - 200-300 t: 2
- 400-500 t: 3
- 600-700 t: 4
- 800-3800 t: 5
And that's why my dedicated ASW DDs displace 800 t. Back on topic: those FS KEs' only job is to fill the FS tonnage requirement as cheaply as possible. As such, they don't have either minesweeping gear or ASW stuff. No sonar, no helicopter (each of them has a maintenance of 8/month!), no AA, nothing. If I could I'd get rid of their gun, too. It's just that 1600 t KEs with colonial service are cheaper than 2000 t KEs without it. I'm also aware that KEs lose gun duels against submarines no matter how well armed you make them (maybe the game checks their armor instead? Or they are scripted to lose no matter what?), but either submarines stop carrying guns past a certain date or they don't get sent in the colonies where my KEs are. Either way, I don't remember losing any of them (and I'm on my third 70s-80s temporal loop), but I'll keep an eye on them. |
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Post by director on Jul 25, 2024 8:25:23 GMT -6
In my current US game, I built some 'gunboat' KEs for colonial service, supplemented by CLs if an area is likely to become a war zone (and with some CAs for SE Asia, since that's distant).
Since the game now pretty much requires keeping a peacetime fleet in reserve, I know it will take some months to get warships into a war zone (say, from the US East Coast to SE Asia, for example). In that case I do keep some older CAs and CLs to hold out for a few months while the fleet comes up. Those ships are just regular warships - not specially equipped for colonial service.
I am currently using three types of KE. The 'gunboats' are 2500-ton, colonial-service ships with a top speed of 21 knots and a 5" main gun battery - I have about a dozen, scattered between the North, Central and South Pacific. Less than two dozen are 1000-ton minesweepers and the majority are fitted out for ASW work with mines but no sweeping equipment.
The colonial-service KEs are pretty useless as warships, but I believe they are cheaper than an equivalent tonnage in CLs. I'm not expecting to fight in the North, Central or South Pacific, so gunboats are more useful (cheaper) than cruisers. Also, if i have one or more disabled I can easily shift the tonnage I need out of the Central pacific pool.
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Post by durhamdave on Aug 9, 2024 13:31:28 GMT -6
KE over 1000 tons are a dubious investment as their minesweeping capability maxes out at that displacement, and no matter how you build them, they will still get mowed down in droves by submarine guns. Don't underestimate how high those submarine gunners' spirits are. Yes, I'm aware of that, but thanks for bringing it up anyway! The casual player may not know about it. It happens to the base ASW value, too. I only tested on DDs, but they are: - 200-300 t: 2
- 400-500 t: 3
- 600-700 t: 4
- 800-3800 t: 5
And that's why my dedicated ASW DDs displace 800 t. Back on topic: those FS KEs' only job is to fill the FS tonnage requirement as cheaply as possible. As such, they don't have either minesweeping gear or ASW stuff. No sonar, no helicopter (each of them has a maintenance of 8/month!), no AA, nothing. If I could I'd get rid of their gun, too. It's just that 1600 t KEs with colonial service are cheaper than 2000 t KEs without it. I'm also aware that KEs lose gun duels against submarines no matter how well armed you make them (maybe the game checks their armor instead? Or they are scripted to lose no matter what?), but either submarines stop carrying guns past a certain date or they don't get sent in the colonies where my KEs are. Either way, I don't remember losing any of them (and I'm on my third 70s-80s temporal loop), but I'll keep an eye on them. What about max K-guns? IIRC that was 900t in RtW2. |
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Echo
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by Echo on Aug 11, 2024 10:03:22 GMT -6
What about max K-guns? IIRC that was 900t in RtW2. Yes, 900 t is required for 4 depth charge throwers in RtW3 (500 t for 2 depth charge throwers). My doctrine has changed since I posted that, though. All my ships that can, now have at least two torpedoes (exactly two torpedoes on dedicated TP ships), max mines (this includes two 26000 t AMCs with 520 mines each), minesweeping gear (minesweeping value maxes at 1000 t, so that's the tonnage of the dedicated TP ships I'm building now), and max of whatever increases ASW value at that time but not enhanced sonar system, towed array sonar or helicopters. Dedicated DEs (TP DDs) have no guns (the design is still legal) and radar limit 2. KEs have a single 2 in gun with 30 rounds and local fire control. No colonial service. I keep all DEs and KEs in active fleet during peacetime, then switch them all to TP in wartime. I don't know if this is optimal, but I build 3 times the amount of 1000 t KEs needed to cover the colonial tonnage, keep 2 times the amount needed for each sea zone in those sea zones, while the rest I keep in home waters and send them manually (while still on TP) to cover wartime losses. Mines and naval patrol aircrafts sink the vast majority of the enemy submarines in the late game, not the ASW value on ships. Dunno about other time periods. |
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Post by larcrivereagle on Sept 5, 2024 13:15:46 GMT -6
My doctrine has changed since I posted that, though. All my ships that can, now have at least two torpedoes (exactly two torpedoes on dedicated TP ships), max mines (this includes two 26000 t AMCs with 520 mines each), minesweeping gear (minesweeping value maxes at 1000 t, so that's the tonnage of the dedicated TP ships I'm building now), and max of whatever increases ASW value at that time but not enhanced sonar system, towed array sonar or helicopters. Huh. I've never thought about building a dedicated mining ship like that. What order do you give them in wartime? |
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Post by wlbjork on Sept 5, 2024 21:19:50 GMT -6
Currently, I use colonial service on 1600 t KEs for double FS tonnage as safety margin. Given that I have yet to lose a single one of them, I'm considering to lower their displacement, possibly all the way down to 800 t (though in this case I guess I'll make 20% or more than the bare minimum needed to cover FS tonnage and keep the extra ones mothballed). I let the AI sort them out as I assign them to foreign station (I', too lazy to send them manually). If I ever am in the mood to fight my enemies in their home waters (in a different sea zone than my home waters), then I try to acquire possessions there, I expand them, and I send elements of my fleet. This means that I have on station more tonnage than required, which in turn means not only that colonial service is superfluous on those ships, but also that it's an hindrance since it uses tonnage that's better spent in firepower/armor/speed. KE over 1000 tons are a dubious investment as their minesweeping capability maxes out at that displacement, and no matter how you build them, they will still get mowed down in droves by submarine guns. Don't underestimate how high those submarine gunners' spirits are. That seems to change once you get access to better techs. My 1935 start, in which I've built over 100 KEs, has had none of them lost to guns from a Sub of any type in 25 years of playing. Attachments:
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