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Post by boomboomf22 on Feb 26, 2017 10:10:50 GMT -6
What I like about 1,500 ton dds with 6" guns is that not only do they wreck any dds they hit, but once directors on dds show up they murder cls
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Post by ikahime on Feb 26, 2017 12:19:13 GMT -6
What I like about 1,500 ton dds with 6" guns is that not only do they wreck any dds they hit, but once directors on dds show up they murder cls I've found that 2600ton CLs with 4 six inch guns do a pretty good job of wreaking those 5000ton CLs with 12 4 inch guns (3 inch belt armor, but no gun armor) the AI likes to build. I'm not quite sure what the enemy hopes to accomplish with those things. Late game with super-firing turrets and torpedo launchers, these things evolve into oversized DDs.
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Post by archelaos on Feb 26, 2017 15:59:43 GMT -6
In reality those 4in cruiser were built as those guns had huge firepower, thanks to the fact those guns had very high rate of fire and ships of the period, even early B, were prone to fire from HE shells. If you want to know how does it work, install and play World of Warships, there HE spamming work all the way up to 1945 era ships. BDW, 2600t is not an oversized DD. It's a IWW period leader, or IIWW period slightly bigger than standard DD In fact many IIWW DDs were over 3000t full...
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Post by director on Feb 26, 2017 17:20:59 GMT -6
A look back at 'historical' designs shows the British built a lot of fast, small CL armed with 4" guns from 1900 up to about 1908. These were mostly intended to serve as destroyer flotilla leaders. Starting with the 'Town' classes their CLs go up sharply in size and move from a mixed 6" and 4" battery to a pure 6" battery just before WW1. German CLs tend to be competitive or superior to their British counterparts right up to the 'Town' class, after which German CLs get a little bigger but keep the 4.1". The British 'Town' class were meant not just to lead DDs but to overcome German squadron leaders, and they are superior to German CLs in firepower, with 5-6" in a broadside as opposed to 6-4.1". In addition, Great Britain built a lot of CLs while Germany didn't.
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Post by ikahime on Feb 26, 2017 18:10:32 GMT -6
In reality those 4in cruiser were built as those guns had huge firepower, thanks to the fact those guns had very high rate of fire and ships of the period, even early B, were prone to fire from HE shells. If you want to know how does it work, install and play World of Warships, there HE spamming work all the way up to 1945 era ships. BDW, 2600t is not an oversized DD. It's a IWW period leader, or IIWW period slightly bigger than standard DD In fact many IIWW DDs were over 3000t full... 2000 and 3000 ton DDs should be an unlockable tech for extended games.
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Post by bcoopactual on Feb 26, 2017 18:18:04 GMT -6
The game was only designed to go to 1925 so DD's of that size are beyond the scope of RTW1. No doubt that larger DD's will be available in RTW2 since it's going to 1950 by design.
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Post by ikahime on Feb 26, 2017 18:29:49 GMT -6
The game was only designed to go to 1925 so DD's of that size are beyond the scope of RTW1. No doubt that larger DD's will be available in RTW2 since it's going to 1950 by design. 1500 tons is still enough for 35knot special type destroyers with 3x twin turrets and twin quad launchers. Not quite up to interwar standards, but getting there. In both cases, these DDs were preceded with a nearly identical design with similar capabilities. I'm not sure why the Japanese one is faster. Otherwise their loadout is identical.
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Post by bcoopactual on Feb 27, 2017 9:08:29 GMT -6
1500 tons is still enough for 35knot special type destroyers with 3x twin turrets and twin quad launchers. Not quite up to interwar standards, but getting there. Huh, I went and did some quick checking and it seems that for most of the interwar period, most of the navies of the world stayed under or around 1,500 tons for their destroyers. I could be missing something because I didn't spend a great deal of time researching but it seems that there wasn't much new construction immediately after the war through the mid 1920's by the US and UK because they had already built so many to combat the U-boat threat. The Japanese continued to build new vessels after the war and their Fubuki class commissioned in 1926 was 1,700 tons (standard) but even they stayed around 1,300-1,500 tons prior to that which was roughly equivalent to the latest US and UK destroyers. Then the 1930 London Naval treaty limited total and individual tonnage for destroyers. The Japanese got their desired 10:7 ratio for total tonnage and individual destroyers were limited to 1,500 tons with roughly every sixth ship allowed to be a 1,850 ton destroyer leader type. [Edit - The treaty also limited destroyers to 5.1" guns and below.] So it wasn't until 1936 and later that you start seeing the larger 2,000+ ton destroyers. 1930 London Naval Treaty Language for cruisers and destroyers.
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Post by ikahime on Feb 27, 2017 11:48:10 GMT -6
I see, I should have said early WWII destroyer. Either way, it might be interesting in RTW2 if special type destroyers are treated separately the same way Dreadnoughts are. Perhaps with an event and prestige bonus for the first country to develop them.
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Post by axe99 on Feb 27, 2017 14:58:11 GMT -6
The game was only designed to go to 1925 so DD's of that size are beyond the scope of RTW1. No doubt that larger DD's will be available in RTW2 since it's going to 1950 by design. Not saying the game should or needs to change, but Germany actually launched a 2060t (normal) destroyer in January 1918, the S113, which became a French war reparation and kicked around in the Marine Nationale until 1936 (which was their first attempt at a 5.9" gunned DD, that Director mentioned above). They didn't become operational during WW1 though. V116 had a similar fate, becoming an Italian war reparation. There were a few more laid down and either launched then scrapped or broken up on the slips. Info from Conways All the World's Fighting Ships, 1906-1921, page 170. Apparently they didn't have great sea-keeping properties, so that with a slower rate of fire of the bigger guns may not have lead to the results Germany was looking for (so even if the game was changed, larger heavier-armed destroyers shouldn't necessarily be a 'win' - they could be expensive underperformers as well).
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Post by RNRobert on Feb 27, 2017 20:00:59 GMT -6
Don't forget HMS Swift, launched in 1907 and commissioned 1910. She over 2,000 tons full load. Of course, she was an expensive failure, and was relegated to the Dover Patrol during the Great War.
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Post by beastro on Mar 6, 2017 2:40:10 GMT -6
Why overgun when you can undergun? If you go for a square gun layout you can pack a lot of torpedoes on small destroyers without sacrificing accuracy. Yes it does mean you have to drop the guns down to 2 inch but the point of a destroyer is not to fight fair. This what I do up to the development of DD twin guns unless I was a x20 torp DD. I find they are. I guess the way I counter the AI not wanting to fire them is to give them a buttload more to encourage them to be freer. Regardless, lots of DDs charging with max torps for the period can be devastating after about 1906 or so. You can tell when their time comes when their speed and range make it no longer viable for the player to Trafalgar the enemy, barreling through the enemies line to cut off a division to be isolated and overwhelmed. I treat mine like a cavalry charge where they need the right time and position for an attack. CAs and CLs are usually what I use as anti-DD screens and those then get mated with x32 torps while the DDs get better guns to help fight the enemies screen during a charge. I love making late game 24,000-32,000 ton CAs with 32 torps, 24 8 or 6 and 5 and 4 inch guns that rip up every smaller than them as devastate enemy cap ship superstructures. They're not the most efficient use of tonnage, but I don't care! I had an odd battle against a CSA B near 1905 or so. For some odd reason the CSA kept using their Bs as raiders and in this battle it was one of them up against a trio of my older DDs. I stalked it waiting for the right angle of attack to come up and then sent them on a suicide charge. All got sunk but one torp managed to hit. I them went to ultra speed and after minute the battle ended when progressive flooding sunk the battleship.
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