How many DDs is too many DDs

[smacktoward]

Hey all! I've been getting back into RTW lately, and experimenting with some different playstyles. Which brings me to my question.

For a long time, since destroyers seemed like the logical ship to use for coastal patrols, I let my construction plans for DDs be guided primarily by my CP requirements... which usually meant that I had to build a lot of DDs. I generally play with Medium fleet sizes, which by mid-game means CP requirements on the order of 12-16 ships. It is a big lift budgetarily to fill all those slots with destroyers, especially as destroyers get bigger and more complex in the mid-to-late game, and trying to do so would hamstring my ability to build other classes.

Eventually I figured out there were cheaper ways to fill the CP slots, such as keeping obsolete DDs mothballed and bringing them out for CP when a war started or building lots of inexpensive little MSes for CP use instead. I'm still not 100% clear how much of a hit I'm taking to my CP effectiveness by doing these things -- it seems logical that a 200-ton MS with a single 3" gun would be a less effective coastal patroller than a 900-ton DD would be, but I've never seen it conclusively demonstrated whether the game actually takes such things into account -- but at least I'm not breaking the bank cranking out a ton of new DDs every 7-8 years.

But that raised another question, which is: if my DD building plans aren't going to be determined by my CP requirements, what should they be determined by? How do you find the right ratio of DDs to CLs and capital ships? Are there tangible benefits to having each BB bring a large screen of destroyers into battle with it, or are just a couple DDs needed for scouting and building any more is just a waste of money?

I'm not even sure where to begin looking to answer such a question, so I figured I would bring it to the experts

Thanks!

[fredsanford]

I love DD's personally. Are you playing Captain, RA, or Admiral mode? If the later two, you should know about the flotilla attack button, for the mid- to late-game. Torpedos are pretty worthless before 1910-12ish, but are potent ship killers after that. I try to keep at least 3x coastal requirements on ASW/CP, but that's accomplished by cheap MS's and old DD's. Small MS's are ok for this, but they will generally lose gun duels with subs, so there's a steady attrition to be made up.

For "Fleet" DD's on active (AF) duty, I keep about 2x the total of all other larger types *in that area*.

I usually play very large fleets (the only way to fly IMO), and if I'm playing a major nation like Germany, Uk or US, it won't be unusual for me to have 80-90 DD's and 50-60 MS's late game. ASW/CP will use about 70-80, depending on sub threat, which is a major worry late game.

Early game, pre-1910, DD's are pretty useless, so I'll keep just enough to satisfy ASW/CP requirements, plus 4-8 extra per home zone to accompany the battle fleet.

[oaktree]

Jan 26, 2018 11:44:43 GMT -6 smacktoward said:

Hey all! I've been getting back into RTW lately, and experimenting with some different playstyles. Which brings me to my question.

For a long time, since destroyers seemed like the logical ship to use for coastal patrols, I let my construction plans for DDs be guided primarily by my CP requirements... which usually meant that I had to build a lot of DDs. I generally play with Medium fleet sizes, which by mid-game means CP requirements on the order of 12-16 ships. It is a big lift budgetarily to fill all those slots with destroyers, especially as destroyers get bigger and more complex in the mid-to-late game, and trying to do so would hamstring my ability to build other classes.

Eventually I figured out there were cheaper ways to fill the CP slots, such as keeping obsolete DDs mothballed and bringing them out for CP when a war started or building lots of inexpensive little MSes for CP use instead. I'm still not 100% clear how much of a hit I'm taking to my CP effectiveness by doing these things -- it seems logical that a 200-ton MS with a single 3" gun would be a less effective coastal patroller than a 900-ton DD would be, but I've never seen it conclusively demonstrated whether the game actually takes such things into account -- but at least I'm not breaking the bank cranking out a ton of new DDs every 7-8 years.

But that raised another question, which is: if my DD building plans aren't going to be determined by my CP requirements, what should they be determined by? How do you find the right ratio of DDs to CLs and capital ships? Are there tangible benefits to having each BB bring a large screen of destroyers into battle with it, or are just a couple DDs needed for scouting and building any more is just a waste of money?

I'm not even sure where to begin looking to answer such a question, so I figured I would bring it to the experts

Thanks!

My preference varies by period of the game since I think early DDs are pretty ineffective.

First of all I tend to build and keep 20-30 200t MS as my primary CP force.  It is augmented later on by the surviving older DDs (500t and eventually 900t).  I do not mothball or reserve the DDs if they have elite status crews since that does affect their patrol effectiveness.

Beyond that I attempt to keep enough front-line DDs to maintain support for my Battle and Scout lines.  One 4-DD division for the BCs, and 2-3 divisions for the BBs, so 16-20 DDs at a minimum.  And generally an extra division as reserves or replacements while others repair.  This is often enough for convoy escorts, DD v DD fights, etc.  (Edit: Oops.  This is scaled for playing medium fleets.  So let's say I try to get it so that I have a division of DDs to match each division of capital ships I have.  Which is roughly 2:1 then - so 20 cap ships means I want ~40 DD.)

And as the USA I have experimented with late-game 1000t "destroyer escorts" intended to supplement the CP minesweepers, as my fleet DDs went heavy duty gunboat designs.

[theexecuter]

I generally use 2 per capital ship until I get destroyer screen tech...then four per capital ship.

However, once during an experimental playthrough I discovered that having a fleet mostly consisting of destroyers is game breaking.

They can be used for blockade...so if you have enough of them you can blockade anyone and their battle fleet will be very wary of engaging your fleet...even though it should easily beat yours.

I built ships so that I had equal TONNAGE of each ship type...which meant by 1910 I had HUNDREDS of destroyers as Austria Hungary.

Insta blockade against Italy.

France refused to engage my fleet at all.

The game devolves however into a boring click fest of building more destroyers to cover your losses...just like building subs.

[director]

I always set DD research as high priority - multiple torpedo tubes per mount is highly desirable, as is displacement of 900+ tons. My end goal is a DD with 6x5" or 8x4" (I use whichever caliber gun gets a +1 first) and as many torpedo tubes as will fit and still permit high speed.

I tend to build DDs in classes of 8, 16, etc. Like you, I keep an old class or two around for ASW/CP work and fill the rest of the requirement with MS. As far as numbers go, I like to have lots in a fleet action, so between 1.5 and 2 times the size of the battle line feels right.

Later in the game the AI tends to not build so many DDs. Why, I don't know, unless the AI is realistic enough to mimic the 'build big ships now and maybe we'll build small ships later' mentality of most Admiralties and politicians of the era.

[jwsmith26]

I certainly don't find early DDs worthless. It is true that they are terrible at hitting anything with a torpedo, though when they do manage this it's usually lights-out for a pre-dread victim. Without any form of fire control their guns are almost as pointless.

But don't tell that to the AI. As far as the AI is concerned destroyers are the most deadly ship afloat. Early destroyers are absolutely crucial to controlling the enemy's battleline.

Playing at rear-admiral level I often break the enemy battle line by throwing destroyer divisions at it (this is very difficult to accomplish at admiral level). My aim is to divide the enemy battle line, allowing me to isolate and destroy a portion of the line while the other portion reacts, often in seemingly chaotic panic, to the actions of my pathetic little torpedo boats. By pushing my DD divisions right at the center to the enemy line I find that the back half of the line will turn away from the attack, each ship taking a different course, often resulting in mass confusion. In the meantime the front half of the enemy line steams on, ignoring the pandemonium to its rear, allowing me to engage this smaller portion of the enemy's fleet with my entire line.

I also find that this method has resulted in a number of torpedo hits that seldom occur when engaging in a more conventional attack against mobile ships. If opportunity presents itself I will push the DDs right into the midst of the confused mass of circling enemy ships. At that point I turn the DDs over to AI control making sure I've ordered a flotilla attack. Many times this will result in a torpedo hit or two, though I strongly suspect that the hitting torpedoes seldom actually hit their original targets. The swirling mass of ships presents opportunities to achieve hits even when the initial target is missed and even with the measly range available to early torpedoes.

It is true that this results in some serious destroyer attrition, but I consider DDs, especially early DDs highly expendible. Their sacrifice generally produces a victory as the tactically outnumbered enemy line gets mauled.

It is actually quite surprising how many destroyers put into this situation manage to survive. It's often the case that around 75% of the destroyers survive (though most end up damaged). This is especially the case when I turn over control to the AI, which seems far more capable of avoiding damage than I am able to if I reclaim control of the divisions in the midst of the melee (it couldn't be that I'm too aggressive with the little buggers).

Of course the other situation in which DDs are always useful, regardless of the year, is when attempting to disengage from a superior enemy. The terror with which enemy battleships view destroyers allows even a small division of destroyers, even one without any remaining torpedoes, to blunt a pursuit causing the enemy ships to turn away at their approach and often providing just enough of a delay to allow a successful disengagement.

[bcoopactual]

I don't usually think in terms of ratios of destroyers to capital ships, I usually think of destroyers in groups of four and have tried to have at least eight in any major theatre of conflict where I send my capital ships.  I'm beginning to think that isn't nearly enough.  I am fighting France based out of Finland and in the last two large scale battles I've fought I've been significantly outnumbered in destroyer strength and his destroyers are causing havoc on the battlefield.  The one dreadnought I've lost was torpedoed by a destroyer attack and I've had others torpedoed and damaged as well because of timely destroyer runs.  

I adjusting my doctrine to require a minimum of 12 and preferably have at least 16-24 destroyers in any theatre where I send my battle line.  

For how many is too many, I would say that depends on how many MS you build.  I have 40 MS in service and I've kept the survivors (26 out of 32 originally built ) of my 500 and 600 ton DD classes for CP/ASW work.  That's allowed me to a maintain close to 3 x the required number of ships on CP/ASW duty and having 3x the required number seems to keep a lid on enemy submarines so that is my goal.  I will probably scrap my 700 ton DD's when I've built enough 1,100 ton DDs to replace them.  Based on my changing doctrine above as a USA player with a base in Finland that means I want a minimum of 56 front-line destroyers.  8 for the five ocean areas where I have bases and another 16 I can deploy with my capital ships including ready replacements for wartime losses.  

[cabusha]

I generally build DDs in lots of 12 as tech moves up, and keep the older 500/600 ton designs for coastal patrol purposes. I generally keep at least 1-1 parity with the main fleet, preferring 1.5-1 if possible. I play admiral mode so beyond 2:1 I find the DD numbers just as risky to my own ships, as their torpedo spamming late game can lead to friendly fire.

I'll also build an initial lot of 12MS for the first war. I don't bother with them after that since I always forget to rebuild them, and I hate the micromanagwment. If I forget the DDs, they'll just hit Old, and I can always quickly refresh them.

[rimbecano]

"Too many destroyers" is just a confusing jumble of letters to me. It's a phrase I hear my opponents using all the time, but I'm not sure what they mean by it. They seem to pronounce it "Run away! Run away! Torpedo incoming! Glub, glub, glub.", and use it especially often when I'm around. I'm not sure why. All I know is that between coastal patrol and fleet duties, I don't have enough DDs left over to use as pontoons for my transatlantic invasion bridge.

[ranger9000]

I usually go fairly DD heavy myself as I find torpedoes are the great equalizer in all things. For example in my current CSA run (1914) I have 3BBs 6CAs 5CLs and 63DDs with 7 more of my newest class in production. It's not unusual for me to get combat events that pit a squadron of 3-9 Destroyers and maybe one CL up against lone enemy CAs Bs BBs and BCs and honestly I usually find in these cases the DDs win out every time and even if they all sink it's only a few hundred points lost compared to the thousands of points of damage they do if they land even one torpedo (literally has battles that I won on points where I lost all my DDs and just left a battleship at medium or heavy damage)

[Noname117]

Destroyers are good ships. Early game they're good deterrents to prevent enemy battle-lines from getting too close and for finishing off dead ships. Late game they're deadly to enemy battle-lines and if they miss can still scramble them. Early game DDs are also good coastal patrol ships once obsolete.

I wouldn't say there's an exact number of DDs I go with per other ship or anything. I tend to like to lay them down in groups of 4 at a time, and usually start a new group once an old group is finished (although this depends on the nation; sometimes I'll take breaks from building DDs if I need to finish other ships and/or if DD tech hasn't advanced much in awhile).

The older DDs get relegated to the coastal defense role as the better DDs become more numerous, and depending on the nation probably somewhere from 12-32 DDs sortieing with the fleet is a good idea. By 1925 I'd expect 900 tonners and above to fill that role, although continuing on will gradually see them and eventually the 1100 tonners relegated to coastal patrol duties.

Sometimes either one of the older classes of fleet DDs or the latest class of patrol DDs will be sent with a more obsolete section of the fleet to attempt to take colonies.