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Post by kotori87 on May 21, 2018 18:27:28 GMT -6
Ahoy folks, I'm trying to figure out what's going on here. Manually ordering torpedo launches is one of the few ways I've found to successfully launch torpedoes against the DASTARDLY ENEMY(tm). However, even when using manual torpedo launches, I frequently found myself confounded by the announcement that my torpedo launch is blocked by a friendly ship in the line of fire, when clearly there is not. What is going on here? Is this a bug, a complete fabrication by my torpedo-men so they don't have to break their backs reloading their massive weapons? Or is there something more to it? In the attached screenshot, I attempted to fire torpedoes from CA Vineta on one of the two transports to starboard. The solution on the further transport was labeled as "friendly ship in the line of fire", but the nearer transport was a clear shot. There is certainly no way for the squadron leader, CA Prinz Heinrich, to be in the way, so there are only two possibilities for which ships are in the line of fire. Either Vineta's torpedo-men are concerned about hitting the Roon, or they are concerned about the torpedo hitting their own ship due to the projectile's slow speed. I have seen similar issues on various Let's Plays, so clearly I am not the only person having difficulty with this. Has anyone figured out what is going on, and/or how to avoid it? Attachments:
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Post by bcoopactual on May 21, 2018 18:54:15 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum. I'll preface this by stating that I only play in Admiral's mode so I've never even seen the manual torpedo launch window until you posted that screen shot.
So with the caveat that I'm no expert on this my guess is it is indeed the Prinz Heinrich that is the friendly fire concern. It's on the same side as the target and probably within the arc of fire of the torpedo launcher, or close to it. I realize that as human players we can see that the Prinz Heinrich is going to move away from the target but the game code for checking for friendly fire may only take into account friendly ships moving into the line of fire and not out of the line of fire. I am kind of surprised Roon could fire a torpedo and Vineta can't. Perhaps Henrich is outside the effective range of Roon's torpedoes or maybe I'm just wrong about Henrich being the problem in the first place.
If I recall, a good while back, there were frequent complaints on the forum where players reported friendly fire incidents with torpedoes launched by friendly AI ships and I believe the developers modified the friendly fire check to reduce those incidents. So the friendly fire check may now be a little overcautious and that can cause situations like you encountered. Or I could be "mis-remembering" and it's always been like this. There isn't much that can be done about it except try to keep you ships in line so they don't drift closer to the enemy ships than the other ships in the same division. I always keep the division speed one or two knots less than maximum so the trailing ships can more easily keep station.
In Admiral's mode, I just assume that my ships will never launch torpedoes in the early game. Even in later years my ships specialize in torpedoing ships I've already crippled with gunfire far better than hitting "live" enemy ships.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 21, 2018 19:30:38 GMT -6
Ahoy folks, I'm trying to figure out what's going on here. Manually ordering torpedo launches is one of the few ways I've found to successfully launch torpedoes against the DASTARDLY ENEMY(tm). However, even when using manual torpedo launches, I frequently found myself confounded by the announcement that my torpedo launch is blocked by a friendly ship in the line of fire, when clearly there is not. What is going on here? Is this a bug, a complete fabrication by my torpedo-men so they don't have to break their backs reloading their massive weapons? Or is there something more to it? In the attached screenshot, I attempted to fire torpedoes from CA Vineta on one of the two transports to starboard. The solution on the further transport was labeled as "friendly ship in the line of fire", but the nearer transport was a clear shot. There is certainly no way for the squadron leader, CA Prinz Heinrich, to be in the way, so there are only two possibilities for which ships are in the line of fire. Either Vineta's torpedo-men are concerned about hitting the Roon, or they are concerned about the torpedo hitting their own ship due to the projectile's slow speed. I have seen similar issues on various Let's Plays, so clearly I am not the only person having difficulty with this. Has anyone figured out what is going on, and/or how to avoid it? Well, I can only say that "Torpedoes, once fired, are friends to know one".  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2018 6:03:35 GMT -6
I get that a lot. But in any event it's better than leaving it up to AI...
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Post by rimbecano on May 22, 2018 14:13:13 GMT -6
Most of the time it's that when taking into account the amount of lead that needs to be pulled on the target for the torpedo to hit, a friendly ship crosses the line of fire whose interference is not immediately obvious. But every once in a while, I've run across cases where the nearest friendly ship was basically on a bearing opposite to the direction of the torpedo track.
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Post by kotori87 on May 22, 2018 15:32:01 GMT -6
I would love to know more of the mechanics behind the torpedo-launch mechanism. Most of my frustration stems from the lack of understanding - I don't know why the shot counts as blocked. Even something as simple as knowing *which* ship is blocking line of fire would be of great help, since often it is not immediately obvious. I will continue my observations, and post anything I figure out here. edit: during another battle today, I took these two screenshots. It appears that the shot was blocked when a friendly ship was within 90 degrees of the torpedo's course, but cleared up the next turn when the aim point changed. I will test this next time I'm close enough for torpedoes. Attachments:
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fishy
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Post by fishy on May 31, 2018 15:26:09 GMT -6
A few days ago, I watched one of my destroyers run full speed into a torpedo one of my BCs launched at a BB. The BB was dead in the water and was possibly sinking. It was both funny and sad. The DD was one of newest class of DDs I had just built. It sank right then and there.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 31, 2018 15:59:54 GMT -6
A few days ago, I watched one of my destroyers run full speed into a torpedo one of my BCs launched at a BB. The BB was dead in the water and was possibly sinking. It was both funny and sad. The DD was one of newest class of DDs I had just built. It sank right then and there. Maybe it would behoove you to remove torpedo tubes from anything larger than a light cruiser. I never install torpedoes on anything beyond light cruisers and submarines. Friendly fire incidents occur all the time, mate. |
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Post by HolyDragoon on Jun 2, 2018 6:53:28 GMT -6
Well, I have this one tale of one of my destroyers firing torpedoes at an enemy ship, several patches ago... too bad it sorta kinda forgot MY BATTLESHIPS WERE IN THE MIDDLE!
Yes, I'm still salty over that, why do you ask?
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Post by kotori87 on Jun 3, 2018 13:38:59 GMT -6
After running a lot of battles with torpedo attacks, I think I've determined the general rule the game uses for torpedo firing. *disclaimer* This is my best guess on what's happening based solely on in-game observations. I have not checked the game's source code, talked to the developer, or made any proper scientific investigations. This is just a theory, and it may be completely wrong. It seems to work for me, however, so without further ado, here is what I think is going on.
IF the target is within the torpedo launcher's firing arc (no idea what that actually is, because the game only shows you main gun firing arcs), the game calculates a firing solution based on the target's current heading and speed. No effort is made to anticipate speed or direction changes. Then, IF that firing solution is also in the firing arc, it checks for possible friendly fire issues. The friendly fire check covers a 180 degree arc, 90 degrees to either side of the launcher, out to the max range of the launcher. If a friendly ship is within that arc, or will pass through that arc in the next couple of turns (I don't know the exact count), then they will refuse to fire because of a friendly ship in the line of fire. From this, I have a short list of DO's and DON'Ts on how to use torpedoes.
1) if you want to torpedo a crippled enemy ship, DON'T SURROUND IT! This is a surefire way to block your own shots while exposing yourself to any remaining torpedoes he may have. On the other hand, your most reliable torpedo firing position is when you're surrounded at point-blank range. If you can survive being surrounded at point-blank range, that is.
2) when launching destroyer torpedo attacks, Don't turn towards the enemy to set up a shot. Turning towards the enemy puts your lead ship inside the friendly-fire arc of the 2nd ship, the 2nd ship inside the arc of the 3rd, etc. Instead, line up your approach from outside torpedo range, and break off and line up again if the enemy's maneuvers spoil the approach.
3) when launching destroyer torpedo attacks, Don't use simultaneous turn-away maneuvers. While turning away opens up your lead ship's firing arc, it puts the lead ship in the friendly-fire arc of the 2nd ship, the 2nd ship inside the arc of the 3rd, etc. Instead, use a sequential turn-away maneuver. This clears each ship's firing arcs for a turn or two, allowing each ship to get a shot off.
4) keep in mind that the friendly-fire check only checks a few turns into the future, and does not consider turning when doing the check. A shot can be blocked by a friendly ship that's turning to get out of the arc, and a shot could be permitted when a friendly ship hasn't turned into the arc. Even worse, I've seen long-range torpedo shots that *should* have tripped the friendly-fire block, but didn't because of how long it took for the torpedoes to get there.
5) note that both the target AND the firing solution have to be in-arc for a torpedo to be launched. This can be particularly annoying during high-speed destroyer fights and light cruiser chases.
I will try to take several screenshots to illustrate the friendly-fire arc, how it works, and various situations where it fails.
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Post by rimbecano on Jun 3, 2018 14:43:18 GMT -6
That actually explains quite a lot. It would be better if it just ran a firing solution on each friendly ship and checked to see if that solution was within so many degrees, or so many yards of the ship in question. But I have noticed before that friendly ships on the opposite side can block a torpedo shot, which is exceptionally annoying.
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