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Post by neferkare on Jun 6, 2018 7:40:23 GMT -6
Is it currently possible in RTW to for a hit on secondaries to knock out several secondaries through flash fire?
I remember that one possible hit result in the 1980 edition of Avalon Hills Bismark was that a hit on a secondary knocked out all secondaries on that side of the ship, I would suppose by flash going down the hoists and into the passages used to transport the charges from the magazine to the secondaries. Also I Have Read(tm) that the loss of Queen Mary at Jutland was from a flash fire detonating the 4" magazine, which in turn detonated one of the main magazines. Seydlitz at Dogger Bank also suffered something similar but with the main armament, in that a hit on one rear turret knocked out both rear turrets via ammunition fire.
So, Suggestion: If a hit knocks out a turreted or casemated secondary, there is a small chance of flash spreading to the other secondaries on that side of the ship. If that happens there is a small chance of the secondaries magazine detonating, and if that happens there is a chance of it spreading to the main magazine.
Suggestion2: Hits that knock out main turrets can also knock out an adjacent main turret. Might be some trouble defining adjacent? Did port and starboard wing turrets usually share magazines?
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Post by sittingduck on Jun 6, 2018 9:37:07 GMT -6
I gladly await correction from someone with more knowledge than me (just about everybody it would seem...) but Secondary Flash Fires are already in play. Seems to me that rule of thumb was that the larger the Secondary gun size the higher the probability of a Flash Fire with the big one as a result. I must also confess that I'm the kind of player to click through results so fast that my most common thought is "what did that say". I am not aware that any "chain disabling" exists other than the "Vesuvius Effect" of magazine explosions.
As a follow up question, is casemate armor the same as belt, belt extended, or secondary?
I love the fact that "old dogs", newbies, and the developers take time to respond to questions like these. The comments are always interesting.
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Post by director on Jun 6, 2018 10:07:31 GMT -6
They are - I just lost the USS Nevada to a flash-fire from a secondary hit. She had 4x12" and 8x10" (four singles per side), took a 12" shell on the 6" secondary armor at point-blank range in a night engagement and went up.
"Remember the Nevada!" was the cry - as we sank an enemy BB, B, CA and CL for exchange. I do love me a massed DD run with the torpedoes as thick as salmon at spawning time...
To the best of my knowledge, it works like this:
The armor belt is the area covered by the thickest part of the armor, usually the central part of the ship from under the waterline to some distance above. Belt end would be the fore and aft sections at the end of the belt.
Superstructure hits include hits on the thinner top edge of the belt. Secondary armor protects casemate guns (if you have them) or is the thickness of armor for a secondary turret if you have that instead.
Casemate guns were either mounted in the hull atop the main armor belt or in the superstructure, the hole being closed by a sliding armored shield.
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Post by aeson on Jun 6, 2018 10:13:04 GMT -6
I gladly await correction from someone with more knowledge than me (just about everybody it would seem...) but Secondary Flash Fires are already in play. Seems to me that rule of thumb was that the larger the Secondary gun size the higher the probability of a Flash Fire with the big one as a result. Secondary flashfires can occur when the secondary guns are 7" or heavier; 6" and lighter secondaries cannot experience flashfires.
Not as far as I am aware. It may be possible for two or more secondaries to be knocked out by a single hit by other means, e.g. gun crews being cut down by splinters.
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Post by marauder on Jun 6, 2018 11:28:01 GMT -6
Suggestion2: Hits that knock out main turrets can also knock out an adjacent main turret. Might be some trouble defining adjacent? Did port and starboard wing turrets usually share magazines? RtWs predecessor, Steam And Iron, had that feature. Turret positions A + B as well as X + Y are considered to share magazines/to be connected in that game. I've only had it happen two or three times to me in SAI and never in RtW, so I believe it was removed sometime during developement. |
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Post by rimbecano on Jun 6, 2018 13:22:36 GMT -6
Ammunition for heavy guns is too heavy for turrets to share magazines. However, the SAI feature does duplicate the real life event where Seydlitz lost two turrets due to loss of discipline under threat of death causing the crew of the turret that had been hit to try to escape to the adjacent turret through a connecting passageway. This compromised the flash-tightness between the two turrets and caused the fire to spread into the second turret.
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Post by neferkare on Jun 12, 2018 6:17:53 GMT -6
So as a summary: RTW does not have chain disabling of main or secondary turrets, and secondaries are immune to flashfires unless they are bigger than 6". I guess that is based on which calibers used bagged propellant instead of brass casing?
Since there are real world example(s?) of a 4" secondaries suffering from ammunition fires (HMS Queen Mary) it would be nice if the lower cutoff for fires is lowered. A quick look at navweapons reveal Royal Navy BL (BL for Breach Loaded means bagged, QF for Quick Fire means powder in casing right?) guns down to 4".
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Post by rimbecano on Jun 12, 2018 13:25:43 GMT -6
What I've heard on QM generally indicates that she was destroyed by a main magazine fire, but I know that it's been speculated that Hood was destroyed by either a fire in the secondary magazines collapsing the bulkhead separating them from the main magazines, or by the ready-use ammunition fire on the boat deck window reaching the main magazines.
In all cases of ships destroyed by ammunition fires, the exact sequence of events is unknowable, because everybody who could have said exactly how things proceeded was killed instantly, and most evidence was destroyed in the event.
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Post by neferkare on Jun 12, 2018 14:44:51 GMT -6
What I've heard on QM generally indicates that she was destroyed by a main magazine fire, but I know that it's been speculated that Hood was destroyed by either a fire in the secondary magazines collapsing the bulkhead separating them from the main magazines, or by the ready-use ammunition fire on the boat deck window reaching the main magazines. It appears the idea about the QM 4" come from Innies McCartney via Lawrence Burr's "British Battlecruisers 1914–1918". That said when I posted the first post on this thread I thought I had read about an incident where a hit on a secondary casemate disabled all the secondaries on that side of the ship. I thought it was mentioned in a discussion about HSF changes to flash protection after Dogger Bank, and that it had happened to a German ship. However I've skimmed Campbell without finding it, and my Tarrant is mislaid:( |
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Post by bcoopactual on Jun 12, 2018 17:26:17 GMT -6
So as a summary: RTW does not have chain disabling of main or secondary turrets, and secondaries are immune to flashfires unless they are bigger than 6". I guess that is based on which calibers used bagged propellant instead of brass casing? Since there are real world example(s?) of a 4" secondaries suffering from ammunition fires (HMS Queen Mary) it would be nice if the lower cutoff for fires is lowered. A quick look at navweapons reveal Royal Navy BL (BL for Breach Loaded means bagged, QF for Quick Fire means powder in casing right?) guns down to 4". I was pretty sure that smaller guns weren't immune to flashfires it was just rare. I found this quote from Fredrik from the Fredrik's Tidbits Thread: "There is a much lower chance of flash fires for light and medium guns, and for CL, but it can happen." |
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Post by aeson on Jun 12, 2018 20:27:43 GMT -6
I was pretty sure that smaller guns weren't immune to flashfires it was just rare. I found this quote from Fredrik from the Fredrik's Tidbits Thread: "There is a much lower chance of flash fires for light and medium guns, and for CL, but it can happen." "There should be zero chance for flash fires for secondaries of 6 in calibre or less." |
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Post by JagdFlanker on Jun 13, 2018 3:28:58 GMT -6
I was pretty sure that smaller guns weren't immune to flashfires it was just rare. I found this quote from Fredrik from the Fredrik's Tidbits Thread: "There is a much lower chance of flash fires for light and medium guns, and for CL, but it can happen." i havn't armoured the 6" casemate secondaries on any of my ships over the last 2 years and have never been the victim of a flash fire, and i exclusively only use unarmoured 6" casemate secondaries from the start to end of every game i play
i have also never turned on 'reduced turret flash fire risk' in preferences
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Post by bcoopactual on Jun 13, 2018 10:25:56 GMT -6
Conflicting Fredrik quotes.  Only slightly less dangerous than crossing the streams. Maybe my Fredrik quote was referring to main guns since yours specifies secondaries. Not really sure why there should be a difference between main and secondaries though and considering the full context of his statement which you were kind enough to provide I'll go with yours until somebody shows up with evidence otherwise. |
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Post by director on Jun 13, 2018 11:50:13 GMT -6
neferkare: That's correct according to the information I have. Bagged propellant is liable to catch fire and burn; cased charges not (unless it gets really, really, really hot). It's the burning propellant giving off gas that tends to be the problem. Examination of wrecks like HMS Queen Mary indicates the explosive part of the shell didn't go off. Ships like Hiei and Kirishima (or Yamato) may have exploded during sinking because waterpressure collapsed the magazine and sparked the explosion.
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Post by fredsanford on Jun 13, 2018 18:13:08 GMT -6
Conflicting Fredrik quotes. Only slightly less dangerous than crossing the streams. Maybe my Fredrik quote was referring to main guns since yours specifies secondaries. Not really sure why there should be a difference between main and secondaries though and considering the full context of his statement which you were kind enough to provide I'll go with yours until somebody shows up with evidence otherwise. Also remember "medium guns" goes up to 10". |
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Only slightly less dangerous than crossing the streams. 