Enemy ships must have some sort of torpedo advantage... ;|

[thatzenoguy]

I have noticed that in close range shootouts between two ships, my usually much larger B's and CA's, fighting even measly CL's which have already suffered massive damage, get torped when mine are in a much better position.

Come on. ;|

[garrisonchisholm]

I felt the same way when I first started playing, but I have been assured that such is not the case. I've been able to ameliorate my own vulnerability by making course changes when the time seems ripe for the enemy to launch, but AI torpedo success does seem to be greater than Admiral level ships can match.

[archelaos]

Dec 4, 2018 10:51:13 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

I felt the same way when I first started playing, but I have been assured that such is not the case. I've been able to ameliorate my own vulnerability by making course changes when the time seems ripe for the enemy to launch, but AI torpedo success does seem to be greater than Admiral level ships can match.

Garrison, while I don't think AI is cheating in strict sense, I've seen too many times how AI ship dodges as soon as torps leave launchers. And AI use torps to full potential, available to player only on Captain mode with full micro of DDs.

[garrisonchisholm]

Well, maybe we need a coding inquest then to resolve it once and for all.

All I can be sure of is once I reached a certain level of fear of enemy torpedoes I started suffering only 0-2 hits per action. Of course, those actions became less decisive, as I frequently abandon ideal firing situations to change course.

[sittingduck]

Dec 4, 2018 14:11:33 GMT -6 garrisonchisholm said:

Well, maybe we need a coding inquest then to resolve it once and for all.

All I can be sure of is once I reached a certain level of fear of enemy torpedoes I started suffering only 0-2 hits per action. Of course, those actions became less decisive, as I frequently abandon ideal firing situations to change course.

"coding inquest" and a Mel Brooks movie immediately springs to mind....
If you do get around to a torpedo coding inquest take a peek at the 'friendly ship in line of fire' language too. Seems that any ship within a torpedoes range, in any direction, can interfere with a torpedo shot. It gets frustrating closing the lead DD into range just to have it's shot stopped by (evidently) the following ships in the DD's squadron...
Now get back to testing. Hop to it. No time to dawdle.

[garrisonchisholm]

Aye-aye Sir! :]

[fwskungen]

The way i reduce the risk of eating enemy servings of fish (torpedoes) is mostly keep out of range of them for the early game. I always give my ships at least 1 torpedo so i can see the range. Later in the game you need to keep doing turns to keep them off track this gets complicated. What id like to have was the torpedo range circle even if i DONT have torpedoes on board so i can have a chance to see my torpedo range an guess at the Enemies torpedo range. Also eat fish i keeps you healthy ;-)

[AiryW]

If you set the game speed to low and change course extremely frequently, you will become very well protected against torpedoes.

It's also worth being conscious of the fact that the position where you are vulnerable to torpedoes is extremely tempting for a large ship against a small. You want to pull into a broadside, they want to peel off. If you both follow that instinct you are setting yourself up for a fish. I think that's why submerged torpedoes matter in the first place. You have to force yourself to maintain a longer distance, accept inferior firing angles and cut speed so you dont shake yourself.

[thatzenoguy]

Okay, oooooooooooooookay, I am calling bullshit until I see some damned code!

On EVERY broadside which lasts a while, I will be torpedoed, even when I am facing heavily damaged ships.

And on EVERY broadside where my own ships are in perfect position to fire a fish, they refuse to do so, and whenever they do, they always miss.

[tunacat]

Honestly. I've decked out my entire, Japanese fleet with torpedos.especially destroyers, and they've only launced a fraction of the torps my enemy launched, and only at disabled ships.

[garrisonchisholm]

Well, my favorite early DD is a 22knotter with 9 tubes. In the first decade they can keep up with the fleet, and then they get dumped into my CP pool for the rest of the game; it is a real reward to have a night-time heavy rain 1000 minute enemy coastal raid suddenly go your way when out of the blue 3 enemy ships get torpedoed. I've also had one late game action with my escorts firing well over 200 torpedoes and obtaining 66 hits. Torpedoes *do* work, its just that the pre-1915 era is almost always going to be disappointing.

Does the AI get an advantage? I don't think so, but I do think it takes advantage of every opportunity.

I will however readily admit that as the Japanese player you are almost Always going to be disappointed with your surprise attack performance. There I definitely think things could be tweaked.

[williammiller]

IIRC the portion of code used to assess target and make firing decisions for AI-owned ships is the *exact* same portion of code used for player-owned ships.

Now, I suppose it may be possible that the AI is more efficient in some manner than a human is, in that it will not, as a couple of examples, get fatigued after an hour or two of intense game play (and say miss an important event/decision point), or forget about a couple of ships that it has control of near edge of the map screen, etc. However, the AI is certainly more limited in many other ways when compared to a human player; as we all know the AI in almost any game can make some seriously irrational decisions at times, especially when it encounters something that is outside its preprogrammed algorithm/decision set.

In any case, I will point Fredrik towards this thread and he can consider and make a determination if anything needs any adjustment, or not, in this area.

[thatzenoguy]

Dec 5, 2018 21:58:48 GMT -6 williammiller said:

IIRC the portion of code used to assess target and make firing decisions for AI-owned ships is the *exact* same portion of code used for player-owned ships.

Now, I suppose it may be possible that the AI is more efficient in some manner than a human is, in that it will not, as a couple of examples, get fatigued after an hour or two of intense game play (and say miss an important event/decision point), or forget about a couple of ships that it has control of near edge of the map screen, etc. However, the AI is certainly more limited in many other ways when compared to a human player; as we all know the AI in almost any game can make some seriously irrational decisions at times, especially when it encounters something that is outside its preprogrammed algorithm/decision set.

In any case, I will point Fredrik towards this thread and he can consider and make a determination if anything needs any adjustment, or not, in this area.

I seriously just don't understand how myself and others can experience such bizzare and lopsided events though.

I can have three, four, hell, SIX destroyers go right past a slow B on the enemy side, and they won't fire, at all, but somehow magically I have had enemy B's torp THEM instead.

Lategame I tend to slap on 16 torpedoes, and the enemy dinkboats still smack my capital ships around more than mine do to them.

[rimbecano]

I think one thing that would help would be some sort of means of analyzing the current feasibility of a torpedo attack, in terms of being able to have firing arcs, torpedo tracks and impact points plotted, even if there is not a currently viable firing solution (out of range or out of arc).

Another thing that I think contributes to player frustration is that I think sometimes at close range a ship will pass in one side of a torpedo firing arc and out the other in between turns, so that a firing solution would exist IRL, but doesn't in game because it's not on a turn boundary.

[dorn]

I think it is quite logical.

To have ideal torpedo solution you need to be a little forward of target on same course.

Now think about how AI played in comparison to human player.

AI played very similar to real Admirals, AI is very caution and usually do not close distance so much. As AI get some damage they turn around and try to disengage.

How does player usually play? Usually much more agresive than AI, hunting AI damaged ships down to finish them so quite opposite to AI.

Now we can look on position of these ships. Hunter is going after prey so hunter had usually bad torpedo firing solution. On opposite prey had usually good firing solution as enemy ship is behind, sometimes a little on one of the side. So to get ideal firing solution is much more likely.

So just using these information it is clear why hunter has much lower probability to do sucessfull torpedo attack than prey.

You can start playing AI style and I expect you get less torpedo hits to your ships. However you should expect you would not sink so many ships as you cannot play so agressively so AI had more chances to escape.