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Post by MateDow on Apr 10, 2019 3:42:18 GMT -6
Once more into the breach old chap.
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Post by dorn on Apr 10, 2019 3:48:03 GMT -6
May 1918 - War with France
5/1918 – Battle of Plymouth HMS Indomitable, HMS Gorgo, HMS Resolution with 6 cruisers and 21 destroyers intercepted French fleet and sunk battlecruiser of Duquesne class, Isly class cruiser and 2 destroyers. Report on damage: 13.5” turret armour of HMS Gorgo was not penetrated at 12500 yards from 14” guns 12” belt armour with 2” sloped deck of HMS Gorgo was penetrated just bellow 12000 yards 2 times HMS Psyche was hit by 5” shell on waterline in extended part and this hit almost sink ship (80 % flotation lost). This was only hit received by HMS Psyche. HMS Delhi was hit at the beginning by HE 14” shell on A turret destroying it with a lot of damage in superstructure, but no damage on vitals.
Situation: Our fleet was prepared on war against Italy and France as tension with Italy and France is high for long period and at on time war with Italy was imminent but averted. Royal Navy is prepared to fight any 2 nations at one time. This is because a lot of ships was scrapped in last 2 years.
Question is if Royal Navy should reactivate Rodney class battleship to different location around the world to show the flag and prepare invasions.
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Post by aeson on Apr 10, 2019 8:10:15 GMT -6
Question is if Royal Navy should reactivate Rodney class battleship to different location around the world to show the flag and prepare invasions. I see no reason to have kept them (or to continue keeping them) if you aren't going to use them. Either reactivate them and send them out to try to invade something, or scrap them and be rid of them.
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Post by dorn on Apr 10, 2019 11:44:19 GMT -6
Thanks both of you. I agree with you Aeson, I will use all resources available but after the war a lot of ship will sail for the last time.
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Post by dorn on Apr 10, 2019 15:44:42 GMT -6
Royal Navy dominates sea
6/1918 – Advanced signalling invented 6/1918 – French submarines sink 2 minesweepers, 3 merchants, we sink 1 submarine 6/1918 – blockade of France started 6/1918 – Cruiser action near Brest Our patrolling battlecruiser HMS Indefatigable with cruisers HMS Apollo and HMS Argonaut, escorted by destroyers HMS Eden, HMS Ouse have intercept French cruiser of Isly class escorted by 4 destroyers. During pursuit French destroyers made torpedo run on our battlecruiser. All 4 destroyers were sunk however one of torpedo hit battlecruiser into machinery decreasing her speed to 12 knots. Machinery has been quickly partially repaired, battlecruiser was able to make 16 knots and block way back to port. French cruiser tried to slip past battlecruiser but first hit slow enemy cruiser and ship was doomed. Our battlecruiser has returned to port slowly with small damage to machinery. 6/1918 – With our fleet of firmly control of the waters in West Africa, our troops have invaded the French possession Senegal. 7/1918 – Superimposed B turrets is considered for light cruisers 7/1918 – French submarines sink 5 merchants, we sunk 1 submarine 7/1918 – Cruiser battle at Land’s End Our battlecruiser HMS Indomitable, cruiser HMS Dragon escorted by destroyers HMS Usk, HMS Colne and HMS Ness intercept French light cruiser and 3 destroyers. We sunk 2 destroyers but HMS Indomitable was hit by torpedo and heavily damaged. 8/1918 – French submarines sunk minesweeper and 6 merchants, French radiers sunk 4 merchants. 8/1918 – Enemy raid on coastal shipping Our patrolling division with cruisers HMS Delhi, HMS Dragon escorted by destroyers HMS Afridi, HMS Usk and HMS Colne intercept 2 French cruisers and French destroyer. We sunk Surcouf cruiser and destroyer, we lost 1 merchant and HMS Delhi was heavily damage after 13 hits. 8/1918 – France has commissioned Tourville class battlecruiser (35700 tons, 25 knots, 12x14“ guns, 9.5“ belt armour) 8/1918 – Germany has laid down Hannover class battleship (37700 tons) 9/1918 – French submarines sunk 5 merchants, French raiders sunk 11 merchants. 9/1918 – Cruiser interception near Ireland Our patrolling cruiser HMS Delhi intercepts Linois class cruiser and sunk him. She was heavily damage when return to port. 10/1918 – after a lot of losses from French submarines one of our Admirals proposed convoy system 10/1918 – HMS Indefatigable has been torpedoed and needs 3 months in dockyard 10/1918 – French submarines sink 9 merchants, we sink 2 submarines. French raiders sink 6 merchants. 11/1918 – Water wall furnace invented 11/1918 – The blockade is causing hardship and food shortages in France 11/1918 – French submarines sink minesweeper and 9 merchants. Raiders sunk 3 our merchants.
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Post by dorn on Apr 10, 2019 15:57:14 GMT -6
November 1918 - situation
Funds: 19.3M
Monthly balance: 2.4M Expected balance after 5 months: 6.2M
Available for construction: 6M
Question is what to build. There are several options:
1. Royal Navy has enough capital ships so I think best think could be finishing modernizating cruisers, especially Comus and Amphion classes with 6 new cruisers. It will replace all Comus class and probably some Amphion class cruisers. 2. Another thing is that Derwent and Rother class destroyers are getting old and need replacement. So we need more minesweepers or some destroyer escorts. 3. The last battleship built is almost 10 years old so idea is to build modern battleship
I would prefer point 1 as no ship will probably be commissioned before war ends.
What is your opinion?
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Post by noshurviverse on Apr 10, 2019 16:08:13 GMT -6
I'd start feeling a bit nervous if I was assigned to the Delhi, she seems to be taking the brunt of France's gunnery.
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Post by aeson on Apr 10, 2019 19:12:39 GMT -6
There's no in-game mechanical reason to use a modern ship instead of a well-maintained antique for ASW/CP fulfillment, as far as I am aware, and with even a fairly minimal 200t minesweeper costing around 600k to build and costing 6k to maintain in peacetime (9k in wartime) while the Derwents cost 8k to maintain in peacetime (12k in wartime) and the Rothers 11k in peacetime (16.5k in wartime) it looks to me like the game will pretty much be over by the time you've saved enough in upkeep to recoup the construction costs of a one-for-one replacement of your 400- and 500-ton destroyers with 200-ton minesweepers. Furthermore, even if the Derwent- and Rother-class destroyers start costing enough more to maintain for you to save 10k/turn in upkeep per ship by replacing them with minesweepers, you still only have twenty of them in the first place, and even on a Small Fleet budget 200k/turn is pretty much meaningless this late in the game.
Unless you just want to do it for roleplaying reasons, I don't see any reason to bother replacing the Derwent- and Rother-class destroyers with new construction for ASW/CP and quiet backwater station fulfillment duties. New construction isn't actually any better for those roles, as far as I am aware, and, factoring in construction costs, it'll probably be something like fifty or a hundred turns - and possibly closer to two or three hundred turns with the Derwents - before you start seeing any savings from replacing the ships with cheap 200t minesweepers, even if the upkeep on the old destroyers starts climbing soon - and you'll essentially only be saving pennies even if you continue playing for quite some time after that point.
I could possibly get behind building some more modern fleet destroyers - twelve 900- and six 1,100-tonners is perhaps a bit of a small destroyer force with eight or nine dreadnought-type capital ships in service, even ignoring the four old predreadnoughts out on invasion duty - but I don't think it's something you need urgently, especially as some of those capital ships are likely to disappear after the war, and when you have 31 200t minesweepers, 11 400t destroyers, and 9 500t destroyers potentially available to cover ASW/CP requirements on Small fleet size I feel like you don't really need to supplement your ASW/CP forces with new construction - simply sustaining current force levels ought to be sufficient. I'd be slightly concerned by Germany's battleship program - Lothringen, Hannover, and Hindenburg will probably be a superior force to all four of your battleships together, if their aggregate displacement and Lothringen's combination of speed, armor, and armament is anything to go by - but on the other hand neither of Germany's battlecruisers should really be too much of a problem for any British battlecruiser other than Illustrious in a fair weather daytime engagement, at least for the moment, and Indomitable, Indefatigable, and Invincible are probably about as capable of standing in the battle line as any of your battleships are - and Incomparable could probably manage in a pinch.
The USA will probably be in about the same position as Germany whenever it lays down another modern battleship - or a better battlecruiser than Lexington - though with the slight disadvantage of lacking any obsolescent 12" dreadnought battleships to take fire off the more modern ships. Other than that, though, none of the other powers really has enough good capital ships to really threaten British naval dominance in the near future (France almost is, but their battleships, while fast and generally heavily armed, are apparently thin-skinned enough that they're probably more nearly comparable to Incomparable and Indomitable than to your battleships, and unlike Germany and the USA France doesn't have any battlecruisers - not even fairly bad battlecruisers like the Lexingtons - in service or under construction to back up its three battleships), and if you're lucky you might be able to bridge the modern battleship gap with Germany and the USA by taking Devastation or Tourville as war reparations - I can't say I'm terribly impressed with the designs, at least from the information available, but they at least have firepower and speed going for them and the armor probably isn't yet completely inadequate. That said, you can't necessarily rely on collapsing the French government, and even if they do collapse you're not guaranteed to get a ship out of it.
As such, if you're confident that you'll have around 6 million per turn to work with, my suggestion would be to lay down a new battleship to answer the potential threat of the modern German and American ships and use the remainder for a cruiser program.
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Post by dorn on Apr 11, 2019 1:01:51 GMT -6
Thanks for your opinion. My analyze is quite similar that point 2 is useless as I have just finished another minesweepers.
Relating to battleship vs. cruisers, German dreadnoughts are really dangerous but any new battleship will be not ready in this war and if I can start construction after war it will be ready for the next one. Indefatigable class is probably similar quality as German dreadnoughts which is something to take in mind as German battlecruisers can be handled by my old battlecruisers. However same is true for cruisers. I do not need more cruisers for this war. Even Amphion can serve on distant areas as they are still powerful. Danae class is slightly better than foreign design but not by large margin. They main advantage is they are quite cheap and I could build them in larger numbers.
May be the solution is wait and accumulate reserve. After the war ended it takes several months to adapt fleet (as my rules that ships need to be scrapped in home area) and even after I think my budget will go down. So may be best thing is to start new construction just several months after end of war. My reserve funds are still low so there is no need to worry about.
Another question which will come how to treat HMS Illustrious and HMS Indomitable. I start to think that HMS Illustrious is better as having 5x15" vs. 6x14(-1) broadside and her turret armour is very thinck similar to newest designs.
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Post by aeson on Apr 11, 2019 11:20:37 GMT -6
I consider Illustrious as likely slightly better against modern capital ships going forwards, but by only a very, very small margin. 6x14" has about the same throw weight as 5x15", so as long as Indomitable's 14"/Q- guns can penetrate the target's armor there's probably not going to be that much difference there. Furthermore, while Illustrious does have better turret armor, Indomitable's turret and belt armor will probably remain adequate against the 12" guns of the German Von der Tann-, American Lexington-, and Japanese Kurama-class battlecruisers for some time whereas the 6" belt on Illustrious is likely already inadequate against a modern 10" cruiser like the Japanese Izumo.
Ideally speaking, I'd want to replace both of them sooner rather than later, but if you can only afford to replace one of them in the near future I'd be somewhat inclined to replace Illustrious first; Indomitable will probably be okay against the existing 12" battlecruisers more or less as long as they remain in service, I wouldn't really want to take either up against a modern battlecruiser with eight to twelve 14" or 15" guns, and Illustrious doesn't gain any real advantage over Indomitable from its heavier turret armor against a modern 10" cruiser like the Japanese Izumo whereas Indomitable would have a clear advantage over Illustrious in the same matchup due to its heavier belt armor. I'd only keep Illustrious over Indomitable if you feel you need it to help counter modern superdreadnought battleships and battlecruisers rather than for countering the older, less powerful battlecruisers or any new 10" cruisers.
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Post by dorn on Apr 11, 2019 13:20:04 GMT -6
You are probably right. Illustrious is better in good weather where her 15" guns, better horizontal armour are important. Indomitable is better in worse conditions where penetration power of 14" guns are not as important and her vertical protection is better.
I am right now thinking about using destroyers vs. minesweepers as ASW. I am loosing more than 0.5 minsweepers per month which is 400k per month. I have just built new minesweeper for 860k and just try to create minimum design for destroyer and I was able to design it withing 800k budget. So it seems that small destryoyers can be quite interesting alternative.
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Post by dorn on Apr 11, 2019 14:23:02 GMT -6
War with France to the end
12/1918 – 17“ guns tested and are under expactations 12/1918 – We lost 2 merchants to submarines and sink 1 submarine. French raiders sunk 5 merchants. 12/1918 – Cruiser interception HMS Delhi intercept French armed merchant cruiser running blockade and sunk her. 12/1918 – Our forces have taken control of the French possession Senegal. Remmants of the defenders are unfortunately continuing resistance in outlying areas. 1/1919 – Inclined armour invented 1/1919 – French submarines sunk 1 minesweeper, 5 merchants, we sunk 1 submarine. 2/1919 – Advanced design calculations are beginning to be used 2/1919 – French submarines sunk 5 merchants, we sunk 1 submarine. French raiders sunk 6 merchants. 2/1919 – Food is becoming scarce in Great Britain due to submarine sinkings o merchant ships. 2/1919 – French destroyer has hit a mine and is reportedly sunk 2/1919 – USA has laid down battleship of North Carolina class (29100 tons) 2/1919 – French forces in Senegal has been defeated 2/1919 – Peace concluded with our side gaining reparations
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Post by dorn on Apr 11, 2019 14:37:50 GMT -6
Costs saving program
There are need 6x6000 tons on foreign stations and on top 25000 tons in the Mediterranean
Ships in foreign stations: the Mediterranean: HMS Geryon, 1 destroyer, 1 Amphion class cruiser other stations: 1 Amphion class cruiser / Persis class cruisers
Ships to be scrapped:Rodney class battleships Comus class cruisers
Ships to be mothballed: battleships: HMS Dreadnought, HMS Resolution, HMS Indomitable, HMS Illustrious all minesweepers destroyers: Rother and Derwent class
Reserve fleet: HMS Centaur protected cruiser
Ships after TOTAL (active/reserve/mothball) including ship in refit or under construction: battleships: 4 (2/0/2) battlecruisers: 5 (3/0/2) cruisers: 16 (15/1/0) destroyers: 38 (18/0/20) minesweepers: 30 (0/0/30)
Budget for construction: maximum 5.5M
Questions (with comparison to foreign navies): 1. Should be scrapped more batleships? 2. Should be scrapped more battlecruisers? 3. Should be scrapped more cruisers? 4. What to build - battleship or wait and build instead fast fleet cruisers to replace Amphion class
I cannot see reason to scrap more ships as Germany has a lot of capital ships and only 7 cruisers are not used for colonial duties. Relating to construction program, question is if Idenfatigable class battlecruisers are enough to stop German battleships.
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Post by dorn on Apr 11, 2019 14:39:30 GMT -6
Are you interested over year 1925? I have never played after 1925 as it seems to me that closing year 1925 game starts not be good at managing it. And release of RTW2 will be probably in the same time.
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Post by aeson on Apr 11, 2019 16:12:47 GMT -6
I don't see a strong reason to scrap Dreadnought or Resolution unless you're planning a battleship program and think that the half million or so a turn you'd gain scrapping these older ships will allow you to get a second or third new battleship laid down which you would not otherwise be able to afford. They're roughly comparable with the German Elsass-, Russian Gangut-, and Italian Roma-class battleships, probably a bit superior to the Japanese Hizen class, and probably not too much worse than the French Suffren unless it has good guns, and if you get rid of them you're a bit short on battleships compared to Germany and possibly the USA. I could see scrapping either or both of Illustrious and Indomitable, though if both were scrapped I'd suggest laying down a new battlecruiser, probably of a new class but possibly just a third Indefatigable despite the design being a few years old by this point. As with the battleships, I don't think that either of these really needs to be taken out of the fleet yet - at least as long as the other powers keep 12" battlecruisers in service and don't have so many battlecruisers around as to make it inadvisable to divide your battlecruiser forces up to keep the older ships more or less out of the way in relatively safe areas - so unless you're looking to fit an extra ship into whatever construction program you settle upon I don't really have any strong feeling on scrapping versus maintaining them.
Only if you're going to build a lot of cruisers - probably about six 4,800t or larger cruisers, or proportionately more smaller cruisers - in the next construction program. The Amphion-class cruisers should probably be adequate on colonial service for the time being, and as the fleet currently stands you don't have enough cruisers to replace them; the four Persis- and six Danae-class cruisers together can only cover five 6k stations (or six, if the Danae class is refitted for colonial service and set to FS while the Persis class is either deployed directly to stations or set to FS as well) while Chimaera by itself cannot cover a 6k station even if fitted for colonial service, and you don't currently have any other cruisers aside from the Amphions.
My inclination would be to do a bit of both. A battleship with a pricetag of around 100-120M/ship (~3.5-4.5M/turn construction costs) or possibly a bit less can probably adequately answer the threat of the modern foreign battleships, and you can round out the construction program with about two modern light cruisers to start working towards replacement of the Amphion-class cruisers.
The Indomitables ought to be capable of standing in the battle line against any of the battleships currently in service with any power in the world, but I feel that relying on battlecruisers to fill out the battleship line to an adequate level - as opposed to supplementing and supporting a battleship line which is by itself adequate against the enemy's battleship line - is a bit awkward. Battleships and battlecruisers are usually in separate forces with a fair bit of distance between them, and having to wait for the other force to come into range before really committing to the engagement can cost you the opportunity to engage at all, if night falls, the weather closes in, or the enemy isn't inclined to stand and fight, and also opens up the possibility of defeat in detail if your two forces cannot join up rapidly enough.
Taken all together as a unified force, your battleships and battlecruisers are probably superior to Germany's battleships and battlecruisers. If they're split up, though, your battleship line is almost certainly inferior and your battlecruiser force is probably only approximately equal - at best - to the German battleship line. I'm fine either way. If you're having fun playing the game, I don't have any objections to continuing past 1925; if you're growing bored or don't enjoy the way the game works past 1925, I also don't have any objections to ending things there.
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