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Post by dorn on Feb 29, 2020 15:09:18 GMT -6
oldpop2000Thank for the link, it was one of the sources I used. Relating to mission kill, if it is armoured carrier and bomb hit and do not penetrate deck armour, the most expected damage could be destroyed aircrafts, usually nothing more. In case of other ships it is different as they armoured deck is much lower.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 29, 2020 15:10:32 GMT -6
So even fighter is not much better and unknown reliability. Now I request dive bomber. So I hope that new dive bomber will be ready for new carrier. I expect 4 squadrons by 12 airplanes. 1 squadrons of torpedo bombers, 1 squadron of dive bombers and 1 squadron of fighters in peace time. During war I will equip the last squadron according the needs. Dive bombers are important along with medium bombers that can drop torpedoes or dive bomb at 30 degree angles. Unknown if the game represents this. Even fighters, could carry at least a 500 lbs. bomb or even a 250 lbs. HE which can do a lot of damage to the deck of a carrier and especially to a merchant ship. Don't try to sink every ship..... remember the concept of the mission kill, it is important.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 29, 2020 15:12:37 GMT -6
oldpop2000 Thank for the link, it was one of the sources I used. Relating to mission kill, if it is armoured carrier and bomb hit and do not penetrate deck armour, the most expected damage could be destroyed aircrafts, usually nothing more. In case of other ships it is different as they armoured deck is much lower. Well, if the ship is using the deck park, there might be avgas tanks and ordnance moving on the deck before the next launch. You might catch the crews preparing for a recovery. Crews are just as important. You might be able to dislodge or damage an elevator to increase the time it takes to bring the air wing up to the deck and launch. This helps a lot.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 29, 2020 15:15:05 GMT -6
Some more thoughts, based on real history but we need to test this information like I am, to see if it works.
In enclosed seas, narrow seas and littoral zone, these are best weapons against trade lanes.
1. Land-based bombers
2. submarines
3. destroyers
4. Frigates and/corvettes
5. MTB's.
Remember that a coordinated attack is absolutely necessary to achieve your goal. Trade warfare is attritional and takes time. Be patient. Rome was not built in a day.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 29, 2020 15:17:19 GMT -6
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Post by dorn on Feb 29, 2020 15:17:29 GMT -6
So even fighter is not much better and unknown reliability. Now I request dive bomber. So I hope that new dive bomber will be ready for new carrier. I expect 4 squadrons by 12 airplanes. 1 squadrons of torpedo bombers, 1 squadron of dive bombers and 1 squadron of fighters in peace time. During war I will equip the last squadron according the needs. Dive bombers are important along with medium bombers that can drop torpedoes or dive bomb at 30 degree angles. Unknown if the game represents this. Even fighters, could carry at least a 500 lbs. bomb or even a 250 lbs. HE which can do a lot of damage to the deck of a carrier and especially to a merchant ship. Don't try to sink every ship..... remember the concept of the mission kill, it is important. I am still in 1931, so fighters have no bombs, however 160 nm range for torpedo bomber with 1600 lb SAP bomb is quite nice. But it should probably not penetrate deck armour of most modern battleships. Right now the only operational carrier is USS Saratoga, converted capital ship, with 27 aircrafts. USN builds another 3 carriers about 22000 tons, Italians 1 carrier about 22000 tons. So it seem I will have advantage against potential enemies with my carrier with 48 aircrafts. I expect that new heavy cruiser, may be pocket battleship design will be in 1932 and at the end of 1932 I will prepare large carrier design. At that time Graf Zeppelin should have trails finished so I plan exercise at end of 1932 which will help me about next carrier design.
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Post by dorn on Feb 29, 2020 15:19:53 GMT -6
Some more thoughts, based on real history but we need to test this information like I am, to see if it works. In enclosed seas, narrow seas and littoral zone, these are best weapons against trade lanes. 1. Land-based bombers 2. submarines 3. destroyers 4. Frigates and/corvettes 5. MTB's. Remember that a coordinated attack is absolutely necessary to achieve your goal. Trade warfare is attritional and takes time. Be patient. Rome was not built in a day. I would be cautions about submarines, I think it will depends on usual weather and airpower cover. In game only flying boats works, not medium bombers. And destroyers and smaller ships could not be used for raiding even if you are right that these type of ships are very dangerous in such areas.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 29, 2020 15:20:13 GMT -6
Dive bombers are important along with medium bombers that can drop torpedoes or dive bomb at 30 degree angles. Unknown if the game represents this. Even fighters, could carry at least a 500 lbs. bomb or even a 250 lbs. HE which can do a lot of damage to the deck of a carrier and especially to a merchant ship. Don't try to sink every ship..... remember the concept of the mission kill, it is important. I am still in 1931, so fighters have no bombs, however 160 nm range for torpedo bomber with 1600 lb SAP bomb is quite nice. But it should probably not penetrate deck armour of most modern battleships. Right now the only operational carrier is USS Saratoga, converted capital ship, with 27 aircrafts. USN builds another 3 carriers about 22000 tons, Italians 1 carrier about 22000 tons. So it seem I will have advantage against potential enemies with my carrier with 48 aircrafts. I expect that new heavy cruiser, may be pocket battleship design will be in 1932 and at the end of 1932 I will prepare large carrier design. At that time Graf Zeppelin should have trails finished so I plan exercise at end of 1932 which will help me about next carrier design. I understand but you must have a good plan to work from. Your SAP can still much damage to the decks, superstructure and possibly the AA weapons and crews, you might be able to reduce its effectiveness. Again, mission kill nor sinking is a better more cost effective solution. It's cost per performance.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 29, 2020 15:57:41 GMT -6
Just some more facts about bombs and flight decks. Shokaku's decks and hangars were not armored. At Coral Sea, Shokaku was struck by a 1000 lbs. bomb forward on the port side which crumpled her deck and started a fire. The second bomb struck abaft of the island or the starboard side, did not penetrate but did start a fire, wrecked the deck and started a fire in the hangar. She was mission killed. No penetration of the decks and only two bombs and she was finished and did not participate in the Midway Campaign.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 29, 2020 15:59:05 GMT -6
Some more thoughts, based on real history but we need to test this information like I am, to see if it works. In enclosed seas, narrow seas and littoral zone, these are best weapons against trade lanes. 1. Land-based bombers 2. submarines 3. destroyers 4. Frigates and/corvettes 5. MTB's. Remember that a coordinated attack is absolutely necessary to achieve your goal. Trade warfare is attritional and takes time. Be patient. Rome was not built in a day. I would be cautions about submarines, I think it will depends on usual weather and airpower cover. In game only flying boats works, not medium bombers. And destroyers and smaller ships could not be used for raiding even if you are right that these type of ships are very dangerous in such areas. Well, then the game has some issues. Medium bomber should be able to dive bomb if built to do so, ans submarines should be able to assist in trade warfare, they do the job when I play Japan.
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Post by dorn on Mar 1, 2020 3:15:04 GMT -6
oldpop2000Sorry, I mixed game and history. In game submarines work every time. In history enclosed sea are not best for them as air power can limit their actions. I was not aware that medium bombers were able to dive bomb. Which had this ability? note: Just find test of Swordfish dive bombing Glorious in 1939. Tests against a stationary target showed an average error of 49 yd (45 m) from a release height of 1,300 ft (400 m) and a dive angle of 70 degrees. Tests against a manoeuvring target showed an average error of 44 yd (40 m) from a drop height of 1,800 ft (550 m) and a dive angle of 60 degrees. The Fairey Albacore was also designed to act as a dive bomber and was used extensively in this role during World War Two.Interesting release height as is really minimal with quite low penetration potential. Another thing is that against stationary target error was higher.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 1, 2020 9:02:22 GMT -6
oldpop2000 Sorry, I mixed game and history. In game submarines work every time. In history enclosed sea are not best for them as air power can limit their actions. I was not aware that medium bombers were able to dive bomb. Which had this ability? note: Just find test of Swordfish dive bombing Glorious in 1939. Tests against a stationary target showed an average error of 49 yd (45 m) from a release height of 1,300 ft (400 m) and a dive angle of 70 degrees. Tests against a manoeuvring target showed an average error of 44 yd (40 m) from a drop height of 1,800 ft (550 m) and a dive angle of 60 degrees. The Fairey Albacore was also designed to act as a dive bomber and was used extensively in this role during World War Two.Interesting release height as is really minimal with quite low penetration potential. Another thing is that against stationary target error was higher. No problem. Submarines can be and were effective in enclosed seas but they have to be careful to recharge batteries at night. As to medium bombers designed to dive, that would be the Ju-88. It's entrance into service was delayed by that ability to dive that was part of its specifications. There were two Ju-88 squadrons up in Norway that attacked the Murmansk Convoys. We used B-25's as skip bombers which was very effective around Rabaul and the New Guinea. The Fairy Albacore was tested as you state as a dive bomber. The US found that the 30 Deg. glide bomb was the safest attack angle to avoid AA and was reasonable accurate. My father said the SBD's dropped at 2000 feet but he said there were some pilots that would scare the heck out of him by going to 1500 feet. Here is link about the B-25's attacking bridges with a diagram of GLIP bombing technique. Almost any bomber could perform such manuevers. theaviationgeekclub.com/the-b-25-bridge-busters-and-the-glip-bombing-technique/
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Post by dorn on Mar 1, 2020 13:30:15 GMT -6
<quote>The US found that the 30 Deg. glide bomb was the safest attack angle to avoid AA and was reasonable accurate. My father said the SBD's dropped at 2000 feet but he said there were some pilots that would scare the heck out of him by going to 1500 feet. </quote>
It is good on cruisers, unarmoured carriers, but on battleships you will lost potential to penetrate deck armour. So it is more doing a lot of small damage which is difficult without having completely superiority.
As the discussion goes on I feel more and more that Royal Navy was completely right to build Illustrious class with armoured deck and all of defence features for the Mediterranean as it is really difficult to hit with enough potential to penetrate her deck. And even if it happened the carriers were far from danger to be sunk.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 1, 2020 13:59:19 GMT -6
<quote>The US found that the 30 Deg. glide bomb was the safest attack angle to avoid AA and was reasonable accurate. My father said the SBD's dropped at 2000 feet but he said there were some pilots that would scare the heck out of him by going to 1500 feet. </quote> It is good on cruisers, unarmoured carriers, but on battleships you will lost potential to penetrate deck armour. So it is more doing a lot of small damage which is difficult without having completely superiority. As the discussion goes on I feel more and more that Royal Navy was completely right to build Illustrious class with armoured deck and all of defence features for the Mediterranean as it is really difficult to hit with enough potential to penetrate her deck. And even if it happened the carriers were far from danger to be sunk. The target determined the type of attack that was used. Against most targets, the glide bomb was the better and safer method but still effective. It was even effective against battleships. Keep in mind that a 1100 lbs AP bomb penetrated the flight deck armor and blew up in the hangar forcing her back to the US for repairs.
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Post by dorn on Mar 1, 2020 17:47:51 GMT -6
Situation 9/1931Original thinking was to build heavy cruiser to counter Italian and Japanese design of large heavy cruiser. Original thoughts were about heavy cruiser of around 15000 tons, 31 knots, long range, 4 x 2 x 20.3 cm guns, 6 x 2 x 15.2 cm guns, 6 x 7.6 cm DP guns, belt armour 152 mm, deck 50 mm, turret faces 152 mm, turret tops 76 mm with torpedo protection level 2. However we have quite good relations with Japan and Italy and relations with USA is very bad, the priorities changed. There are 2 modern USN battleships, 1 heavy cruiser, 1 light cruiser and 12 destroyers that are based on Portsmouth right now. We have actual 11 M with deficit of 1.5 M per month. Battleship Helgoland will be finished next month and another 2 battleships within 8 months which free us some funds for new construction. As USA has no basis in Europe we do not think that they will send whole fleet to European waters and with 6 modern battleships, 2 battlecruisers and 1 carrier we expect that we can dealt with some threat in Europe coming from USN. However we expect that in case of conflict main area of operation will be trade warfare in Atlantic. For such reason, we expect the need: - submarine force (actual 14) - raider force: - 6 specialized light cruisers of Amazone class (with speed of 29 knots, we expect they can evade capital ships, Rochester heavy cruiser class and some older light cruisers) - 6 heavy cruisers of Prinz Eugen class - could be used however as they are quite powerful they will be more likely used to hunt enemy raiders - 6 light cruisers of Emden class - could be used however however some cruisers are needed for fleet duty - 6 heavy cruisers of Königsberg class - more like light cruisers by displacement, but overall better protected than light cruisers
United state navy
Capital ships: Almost all of their capital ships are slow except Ranger class with 31 knots and 9x16" guns are something to be worried. Their heavy cruiser force is quite slow and less powerful than our Prinz Eugen class. Their light cruisers are less powerful than our Königsberg class. Their destroyers are modern and numerous.
Strategy - trade warfare
Priority for construction: 1. submarines 2. cruisers for raiding - as our heavy cruisers are ideal to hunting enemy cruisers 3. minesweepers - their cruiser force is heavily prepared for laying mines 4. corvettes - for ASW work
Proposal for new cruiser to operate as raider in distant areas and able to sink enemy ships, but still be able operate even with fleet.
note: ship has 1 seaplane in hangar and catapult
Variant A - 9100 tons, 34 knots, 90 mines, costs: 37,681 Variant B - 8700 tons, 33 knots, 80 mines, costs: 35,581 Variant C - 8100 tons, 32 knots, 80 mines, costs: 32,927 Variant D - 7200 tons, 31 knots, 70 mines, costs: 28,853
Question remains what design is the best as raider.
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