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Post by dorn on Feb 26, 2020 14:07:43 GMT -6
I am now in situation that I will have additional free funds. So my question is what to build. But for the first time I have doubts what is really needed. Actual world situation is that tension 6 is with France, Soviets, USA, Tension 5 with UK. I have technology sharing agreement with UK which helps me get back on track in technology. My actual fleet is: note: S14 destroyer is destroyer from 1912 rebuilt in 1923, designed speed decreased to 33 knots, but achieved only 32 knots, received increased DC storage for fleet protection and double torpedo mounts were replaced by quadruple ones. Actual situation worldwide Some idea behind actual designs: BC - Scharnhorst class - as there were no modern capital ship, it was needed quickly close the gap, so they need to be cheap. At that time there were not many modern battlecruisers worldwide, so speed was important as numerical superiority was expected. Thus sacrifice had been made on caliber of guns, not armour. BB - Nassau class - need to be cheap, thus short ranged, reasonable armour and excellent 406 mm guns. And to be fast battleship to be able to escape from large number of older battleships but still superior even against modern battlecruisers CA - Prinz Eugen class - built during restriction of 11000 tons. It was not possible built fast cruiser with reasonable number of 203mm guns and have protection against same caliber guns. Decision was to have maximum firepower with basic protection CA - Königsberg class - built during restriction of 11000 tons. Built as cheap cruiser and answer to foreign designs of 9x6" guns cruisers. These ship get some reasonable protection against 6" guns, high speed of 31 knots and 9x152 mm guns. CL - Emden class - Reasonable speed at that time (no many cruisers were faster), 6x152 mm guns broadside and some protection. CL - Amazone class - Built mostly as raider but with ability to fight even cruisers built at start of 20s. 29 knots, long range, 5x152 mm guns broadside, but minimal protection CVL - Ausonia - built to be cheap as possible with lifetime 10-15 years, 20 aircrafts, basic torpedo protection and some splinter protection DD - G27 class - built within limits of 1500 tons (ability of German shipyards). Using 5 single mounts of 127 mm gun to have some capability against light cruisers, option double turrets was discarded because of weight, high speed of 35 knots, short ranged, 8 torpedo tubes and free tonnage for future upgrades. Germany 193001.7z (356.05 KB)
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Warspite
Full Member
Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Feb 26, 2020 17:35:27 GMT -6
I would build more carriers for sure.
Thanks for uploading your save. I wish more people would do this. I find it interesting to see the ships others build.
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Post by cabusha on Feb 26, 2020 18:51:33 GMT -6
If you plan to go to war in the North Sea, I would suggest CVLs for CAP. You can use land based air to take care of the naval strike role without risking losing expensive CVs to counter strikes.
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Post by garrisonchisholm on Feb 26, 2020 21:50:48 GMT -6
Definitely speed is what you need, so-as to be able to choose when and where to fight. I would suggest 2 more BBs and 2 more BCs of your existing designs, and then DDs and CLs that focus on AA, followed by 4-6 well protected carriers and maxing your land-based air capabilities. Yes, this is a 10 year program, but I would try it. And if any money starts to pile up I would build submarines at every opportunity.
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Post by dorn on Feb 26, 2020 23:54:11 GMT -6
I would build more carriers for sure. Thanks for uploading your save. I wish more people would do this. I find it interesting to see the ships others build. Yes, this is something I missing a little compared to RTW1. There were often these types of discussion which is not for change completely strategy as players usually have something in mind but more for inspiration, what we can try next time. There was thread of best ships for RTW1 with sometimes with story behind that and it was quite good to see different approaches. Firstly I was thinking to describing Germany rise of power with 1920 start, but it would take much more time, so I did only this simply description outlining some design decision. And right now situation is that there are really a lot of options how to continue (no more only possibility to build cruiser od destroyers duet to treaty or building capital ships to catch others). To game: I cannot build carriers yet and I have no ships for conversion either. So it is more question if I should continue to built battleships or battlecruisers or should I build some light cruisers. And what type of ship than?
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2020 1:11:29 GMT -6
If you plan to go to war in the North Sea, I would suggest CVLs for CAP. You can use land based air to take care of the naval strike role without risking losing expensive CVs to counter strikes. This is something I do not know as tension is high with Soviets, France and USA. I hope situation with UK will not escalate as our treaty about technology sharing helps it as UK has fleet which I cannot compete. SovietI do not worry about Soviets as I would have practically same number of capital ships as theirs but much more modern. The same is true for light cruisers. The only difference comes from heavy cruisers, they will have 26 vs. my 10. Most of them I am not worried as they have 4x2x8" guns without enough protection against 8" guns. But their new class Vasiliy Chapaev will have 5 ships with 12x9" guns and 5.5" belt which outclass even my Prinz Eugen class. So without help of my battlecruisers my heavy cruisers will have tough time. With Baltic states and my fleet carriers are not so important assets against Soviets especially as aircrafts are still very bad. And I can expand my land based air force quite rapidly. So Soviet make me think more about building some pocket battleship which can easily outclass theirs heavy cruisers and mitigate their numerical superiority in that. FranceSituation with France is different. They have same practically same number of heavy cruisers however (12 to my 10), higher number of light cruisers (20 to my 10) but with their colonial empire I do not think that they can deploy more cruisers against me. And their heavy cruisers are certainly inferior to Prinz Eugen class and even small Könisberg class have some chance as they are not protected even against my 152 mm guns. And they have most of light cruisers older than 10 years. The situation is different with capital ships, they have 3 battleships and will have 13 battlecruisers. But they will have only 1 battleship and 4 battlecruisers quite modern and they older battlecruisers are even slower than my Nassau class fast battleships. So I can probably handle France. So France make me think to build some battlecruisers which will be really fast and can fight most modern French battlecruisers. USAThey have no basis in Europe and I have none in North America continent so it will be more likely trade warfare. I cannot match number of American cruisers but I can build some pocket battleships which will harass enemy trade lines and intercepts enemy raiders outside range of my fleet cruisers. Conclusion
It seems to me that construction program of 2 fast battlecruisers and some pocket battleships seems to be reasonable solution of actual problem. I can lay down 2 battlecruiser about half year and at the end of year start construction of pocket battleships, may be a little earlier.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2020 1:22:02 GMT -6
Definitely speed is what you need, so-as to be able to choose when and where to fight. I would suggest 2 more BBs and 2 more BCs of your existing designs, and then DDs and CLs that focus on AA, followed by 4-6 well protected carriers and maxing your land-based air capabilities. Yes, this is a 10 year program, but I would try it. And if any money starts to pile up I would build submarines at every opportunity. Thank for the suggestions, your suggestion of 2 fast capital ships is probably the best one. I do not think new destroyers are needed as they can be laid down and built quite quickly so there is still time. And I can build corvettes to free some destroyers from ASW work. I do not still believe that aircrafts are so deadly now however a lot of my cruisers (especially the heavy ones) were built with free tonnage for future updates so I think they will get better AA suit. I will build carriers as I can but the most important question will be what type of carrier - armoured one or unarmoured one. I still think more about unarmoured one with maximum CAP protection as torpedoes are more deadly and torpedo protection is less costly compared to protection against bombs. Relating to submarines. To have reasonable number of submarines (100), I will need to spend 300M (1.5 to 2 years of construction budget), which is quite a lot and maintenance of that will cost me 4M per month which is almost as much as my whole fleet.
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Warspite
Full Member
Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Feb 27, 2020 6:22:07 GMT -6
I would build more carriers for sure. Thanks for uploading your save. I wish more people would do this. I find it interesting to see the ships others build. Yes, this is something I missing a little compared to RTW1. There were often these types of discussion which is not for change completely strategy as players usually have something in mind but more for inspiration, what we can try next time. There was thread of best ships for RTW1 with sometimes with story behind that and it was quite good to see different approaches. Firstly I was thinking to describing Germany rise of power with 1920 start, but it would take much more time, so I did only this simply description outlining some design decision. And right now situation is that there are really a lot of options how to continue (no more only possibility to build cruiser od destroyers duet to treaty or building capital ships to catch others). To game: I cannot build carriers yet and I have no ships for conversion either. So it is more question if I should continue to built battleships or battlecruisers or should I build some light cruisers. And what type of ship than? I loaded your save and on the first turn got the tech to build purpose built CVs. I built two 26100 ton 70 plane CVs.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2020 7:36:50 GMT -6
Warspite I will certainly build one carrier. But I do not want to be heavily on carriers as they are not so important yet and they are quite costly. May be you ask question how they can be so costly if they cost usually less than half of capital ship but I look at it differently. See table bellow. As you can see even light carrier has maintenance costs almost half of the fast battleships of Nassau class. In context that Reichsmarine is still trying to catch other nations it needs to build ship strategically suited but on other hand do it cheap to close the gap. But what does it mean cheap in case of which type of ships should be built first? It is ratio of construction costs to maintenance costs. Any ships which has low this ratio are maintenance heavy so it means that they are best postponed just for time of war. Because if they are build as soon as possible they will eat much more of the budget than ships with high ratio of construction costs to maintenance costs. And as you can see even light carrier has this ration more than three times worse than capital ships.
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Warspite
Full Member
Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Feb 27, 2020 12:58:28 GMT -6
I just like carriers and so I tend to build them as soon as I can. I don't focus too much on the cost of stuff in the game, I just play it, although I fully respect your wish to do so. I would say carriers are a force multiplier and to me are a good way to get some level of parity when I am lagging behind in terms of numbers of BB compared to the other powers.
Your Nassau BBs performed well in battle. I got into a war with the Soviet Union and they sent 4 Soviets BBs to the bottom without loss. They took a lot of damage but managed to make it home to port. I also had a great battle where CL Lubeck chased down and sank two Soviet CVLs and some of their destroyer escort. She eventually succumbed to Soviet CA fire but she went down fighting.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 27, 2020 13:21:20 GMT -6
I am now in situation that I will have additional free funds. So my question is what to build. But for the first time I have doubts what is really needed. Actual world situation is that tension 6 is with France, Soviets, USA, Tension 5 with UK. I have technology sharing agreement with UK which helps me get back on track in technology. My actual fleet is: note: S14 destroyer is destroyer from 1912 rebuilt in 1923, designed speed decreased to 33 knots, but achieved only 32 knots, received increased DC storage for fleet protection and double torpedo mounts were replaced by quadruple ones. Actual situation worldwide Some idea behind actual designs: BC - Scharnhorst class - as there were no modern capital ship, it was needed quickly close the gap, so they need to be cheap. At that time there were not many modern battlecruisers worldwide, so speed was important as numerical superiority was expected. Thus sacrifice had been made on caliber of guns, not armour. BB - Nassau class - need to be cheap, thus short ranged, reasonable armour and excellent 406 mm guns. And to be fast battleship to be able to escape from large number of older battleships but still superior even against modern battlecruisers CA - Prinz Eugen class - built during restriction of 11000 tons. It was not possible built fast cruiser with reasonable number of 203mm guns and have protection against same caliber guns. Decision was to have maximum firepower with basic protection CA - Königsberg class - built during restriction of 11000 tons. Built as cheap cruiser and answer to foreign designs of 9x6" guns cruisers. These ship get some reasonable protection against 6" guns, high speed of 31 knots and 9x152 mm guns. CL - Emden class - Reasonable speed at that time (no many cruisers were faster), 6x152 mm guns broadside and some protection. CL - Amazone class - Built mostly as raider but with ability to fight even cruisers built at start of 20s. 29 knots, long range, 5x152 mm guns broadside, but minimal protection CVL - Ausonia - built to be cheap as possible with lifetime 10-15 years, 20 aircrafts, basic torpedo protection and some splinter protection DD - G27 class - built within limits of 1500 tons (ability of German shipyards). Using 5 single mounts of 127 mm gun to have some capability against light cruisers, option double turrets was discarded because of weight, high speed of 35 knots, short ranged, 8 torpedo tubes and free tonnage for future upgrades. How do I generate those pictures that you have presented. I've forgotten. Any help is appreciated by this old guy.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2020 13:30:38 GMT -6
oldpop2000Which one do you mean? The pictures of ships are based on possibility in game (right click on ship and generate picture) to make them using mods of ship sets (I use all mods for that listed in mod list). Sometimes I just adjust some pixels in MS Paint if it is more simple than playing with parts. Than using print screen and basic MS Paint they are put together. For some parts I use MS paint or if I want color them, Gimp - but as I do not use Gimp and know it well I use it only to change color of some part to another palette.
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Post by dorn on Feb 27, 2020 15:01:56 GMT -6
Moltke class battlecruiser design study - variant A Main points that ship need to be reasonable powerful using new 38 cm SK C/34 gun developed in 1929, fast 31 knots and reasonable protection against various guns of foreign nation which is expected to be fought. The range is something to sacrifice as conning tower armour. The secondary armament was chosen as numbers over protection of turrets. Immunity zones against various guns: British BL 16 inch Mk I gun:citadel: 16600 - 24800 yards turrets: 18500 - 26000 yards British BL 15 inch Mk I gun, French 380 mm Model 1920 gun:citadel: 11200 - 24800 yards turrets: 14000 - 25000 yards USA 16 inch / 45 caliber Mark 1:citadel: 14900 - 24800 yards turrets: 17400 - 26000 yards USA 14 inch / 45 caliber Mark 2:citadel: over 10000 yards turrets: over 12400 yards
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Post by oldpop2000 on Feb 27, 2020 17:47:18 GMT -6
oldpop2000 Which one do you mean? The pictures of ships are based on possibility in game (right click on ship and generate picture) to make them using mods of ship sets (I use all mods for that listed in mod list). Sometimes I just adjust some pixels in MS Paint if it is more simple than playing with parts. Than using print screen and basic MS Paint they are put together. For some parts I use MS paint or if I want color them, Gimp - but as I do not use Gimp and know it well I use it only to change color of some part to another palette. Ok, I will work on that. I appreciate your inputs, it helps. Update: Ok, I've started using the picture generator. Can you clear the decks of a hull after creating it, then add the guns? Does the manual explain all this.
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Post by captainloggy on Feb 28, 2020 1:21:44 GMT -6
dorn How did you get the penetration data for foreign guns? Is that historical or in-game data?
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