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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 1, 2020 18:10:15 GMT -6
Dorn:
"Question remains what design is the best as raider."
The simple answer to this statement is what is the primary target of the raider and what other kind of ships might it meet? Simple answer: merchant ships possibly alone but possibly with escorts. The escorts most likely are destroyers possibly a light cruiser rarely battleships.
Solution: A light cruiser with good range and accommodation, reliability, adequate speed to catch, destroy and then escape the protection of the convoy, adequate primary armament to deal with merchants quickly, and escorts. Torpedoes are good, but don't over do it. Mines are good to have. One or two floatplanes can be good for discovering possible targets and their escorts. I would not over do the aircraft.
Do you really need a 34 knot light cruiser whose primary mission is raiding against 10-15 knot merchant ships. Most likely you won't. Do you have to sink all of a convoy? Nope, not for success. There are other considerations with belt armor, armor schemes etc. You should play with those to keep the Cost per Performance in a reasonable regime.
Caution: Don't read too much in the German use of the "Pocket Battleships" and Scharnhorst, Bismarck, Tirpitz etc. The Nazis's were never really serious about building a big fleet, once the war started, the Z plan went away. These ships were effective only because the Allies were not prepared, but they actually did not accomplish much. The AMC's and submarines did most of the work. If you want good examples, look the WW1 Raiders and how they operated.
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2020 1:02:13 GMT -6
I think you are right, 31 should be enough to escape from cruisers. I would probably decrease belt armour and put reliable engines or use diesel engines.
I use only triple torpedo mounts, not quadruple as I think it is enough if quickly dash and out against convoy is needed.
Another interesting point was armament as there were two interesting options: a) double ABXY b) triple AXY c) triple ABY Variant b) seems better for raider in case of danger but you never know if ship will be used for initial purpose (she can hunt raiders etc.) so I choose variant a) Variant c) seems more suited for fleet cruiser.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 9:41:27 GMT -6
I think you are right, 31 should be enough to escape from cruisers. I would probably decrease belt armour and put reliable engines or use diesel engines. I use only triple torpedo mounts, not quadruple as I think it is enough if quickly dash and out against convoy is needed. Another interesting point was armament as there were two interesting options: a) double ABXY b) triple AXY c) triple ABY Variant b) seems better for raider in case of danger but you never know if ship will be used for initial purpose (she can hunt raiders etc.) so I choose variant a) Variant c) seems more suited for fleet cruiser. Remember that this ship is not going to be near a friendly base so keep the equipment and ordnance simple. I suggest twin turrets, ABXY as the best and simplest configuration. You can sail towards your target, presenting a narrow silhouette and still put four main guns on the target, same with sailing away. Single turrets, ABXY might be adequate for a raider, saving weight and decreasing the cost per performance. You might consider reducing torpedo tubes to two, but max out your mines. Many merchants were sunk by mining operations in littoral zones. I am not a fan of raiders except that they did cause the British and Allies to expend warships chasing them around the world, but I can't guarantee that the game duplicates this. An answer from the team might be helpful. My thoughts.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 11:26:21 GMT -6
I am in a game as Germany, circa 1924 - here is an example of my design for a raider. The 1 inch belt with inclined belt means the belt is probably equal to about 2-3 inches. Turrets and turret tops are important to maintain them in combat and later. Anyway, I hope this helps. Lots to play with.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 12:12:52 GMT -6
Here is a Heavy Cruiser- Raider configuration - Analysis and criticism by those who play more is highly welcomed. I messed up on the main armament fire control, it should be the best.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 12:52:40 GMT -6
One question the manual does not answer...I think is what is the actual range of short, medium, long, extended at cruising speed of a ship. If I am Germany and I have just the North Sea and the Baltic, I might not need a medium range ships. I can't tell without actual cruising speed and range at that speed.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 13:31:24 GMT -6
Well I am in a war with Russia, circa 1928 - Results of first engagement
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Mar 2, 2020 13:57:31 GMT -6
One question the manual does not answer...I think is what is the actual range of short, medium, long, extended at cruising speed of a ship. If I am Germany and I have just the North Sea and the Baltic, I might not need a medium range ships. I can't tell without actual cruising speed and range at that speed. I have never had any issues operating in a sea zone with short range ships from cruiser up. You might get a warning about being at less than 50% fuel, but it has never affected my battles. Destroyers seem to have much lower default range profiles in the game, I never design them with short range for this reason and even with medium range have had them fail to show up due to lack of range on particularly long range sorties. You might still want to keep some of your cruiser designs at medium range for ability to commerce raid (which short range ships can't do at all) and for better raider interception chances.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 14:07:59 GMT -6
One question the manual does not answer...I think is what is the actual range of short, medium, long, extended at cruising speed of a ship. If I am Germany and I have just the North Sea and the Baltic, I might not need a medium range ships. I can't tell without actual cruising speed and range at that speed. I have never had any issues operating in a sea zone with short range ships from cruiser up. You might get a warning about being at less than 50% fuel, but it has never affected my battles. Destroyers seem to have much lower default range profiles in the game, I never design them with short range for this reason and have had them fail to show up due to lack of range even with medium range on particularly long range sorties. You might still want to keep some of your cruiser designs at medium range for ability to commerce raid (which short range ships can't do at all) and for better raider interception chances. Yes, that is what I normally do, but I was curious. Thanks for the information.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 14:19:34 GMT -6
Ok, naval battle # 3 - I am ahead by 16,000 prestige points and he does not fight naval battles in the Baltic anymore. Oops. This is crazy. In my second naval battle, he lost again, a heavy cruiser.
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2020 16:45:36 GMT -6
I am in a game as Germany, circa 1924 - here is an example of my design for a raider. The 1 inch belt with inclined belt means the belt is probably equal to about 2-3 inches. Turrets and turret tops are important to maintain them in combat and later. Anyway, I hope this helps. Lots to play with. The game takes inclined armour as 10 % more effective. It is some simplification as effectivness of armour increase with range and with angle from perpendicular but i think as things are done it is not too much inaccurate. Eg. 12 degrees inclined armour has effectivity increased by 2 % from point blank range. From shell goint to target with 25 degree slope, this armour increase effectivness by 13 % vs. armour without that inclination. Even these numbers are simplification as they are not considering construction of shells which can eliminate partially inclination by construction etc.
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Post by dorn on Mar 2, 2020 16:47:49 GMT -6
I am in a game as Germany, circa 1924 - here is an example of my design for a raider. The 1 inch belt with inclined belt means the belt is probably equal to about 2-3 inches. Turrets and turret tops are important to maintain them in combat and later. Anyway, I hope this helps. Lots to play with. Does game (RTW2) allow only 0.5" of deck armour? I am suprised as RTW1 certainly does not. I would not use colonial service with raiders.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 17:03:58 GMT -6
I am in a game as Germany, circa 1924 - here is an example of my design for a raider. The 1 inch belt with inclined belt means the belt is probably equal to about 2-3 inches. Turrets and turret tops are important to maintain them in combat and later. Anyway, I hope this helps. Lots to play with. Does game (RTW2) allow only 0.5" of deck armour? I am suprised as RTW1 certainly does not. I would not use colonial service with raiders.
Agreed, I removed it from my heavy cruiser raider. I will not use it anymore unless building colonial ships.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 2, 2020 17:21:58 GMT -6
Another sea battle except none of my ships encountered the enemy. The enemy losses were by air attack.
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Post by oldpop2000 on Mar 3, 2020 10:19:40 GMT -6
War with France - No sea battles until this one - Its amazing, all done by aircraft
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