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Post by thatzenoguy on May 5, 2016 6:57:04 GMT -6
1: Training, how does it work? I click 'gunnery' and 'night fighting' for a 50% maintainance addition, does it affect EVERY ship I have in the fleet? Does it affect mothballed ships? Reserve? Does it work in a war?
2: SAP ammo, I get it, its SEMI armour piercing, but exactly what is this round good for, compared to HE or AP?
3: What are the exact bonuses of oil firing?
4: In early game (1900-1910), what is a good ship composition?
5: Are secondaries worth it? I figured using the weight for more primary ammo, and increasing armour turns out better late game...As long as you have cruiser escorts.
6: Are upgrades like AoN armour and Minelaying submarines basically random? Or is there a time period its locked to only appear in?
Thanks for any help... ;D
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 5, 2016 7:28:21 GMT -6
1: Training, how does it work? I click 'gunnery' and 'night fighting' for a 50% maintainance addition, does it affect EVERY ship I have in the fleet? Does it affect mothballed ships? Reserve? Does it work in a war? 2: SAP ammo, I get it, its SEMI armour piercing, but exactly what is this round good for, compared to HE or AP? 3: What are the exact bonuses of oil firing? 4: In early game (1900-1910), what is a good ship composition? 5: Are secondaries worth it? I figured using the weight for more primary ammo, and increasing armour turns out better late game...As long as you have cruiser escorts. 6: Are upgrades like AoN armour and Minelaying submarines basically random? Or is there a time period its locked to only appear in? Thanks for any help... ;D Hi: Here is my take but many on this forum are more experienced on this game. Anyway, here goes: 1. Training affects all active and reserve ships but not mothballed ships. Mothballed ships typically don't have assigned crews until activated so then they have to be trained and that takes time. Reserve units will get training but not as much, how much may have to answered by the team or the other members. 2. SAP is good for medium armored ships probably like light cruisers, heavy cruisers, and battlecruisers. Ships with lighter armor than battleships. 3. Oil firing is more efficient since pumps don't get tired at high speed like stokers do, you can maintain max speed during an engagement better with oil. Oil typically doesn't occupy the space that coal does, and in the real world, there were coal fires like the one that destroyed the USS Maine in Santiago Bay. I don't know if the game depicts that. 4. In the area of a good ship composition, it depends on whether you are building a new ship or just rebuilding. I try to put as much speed into a ship as it can handle. This gives me the flexibility of refusing battle if I feel it is in my best interest. I try to give each ship the best balance of guns and armor, on any ship larger than a light cruiser, I do not put torpedo tubes. I save the weight for speed and firepower. Always pick medium range and give the crews good living space for comfort. Just some ideas. 5. Secondaries are useful for dealing with minesweepers, torpedo boats and some older destroyers but I reduce or minimize them. Since we don't have aircraft, they don't perform much of a service. They have a higher rate of fire and can clear the decks of an opponent and start some fires. 6. AoN and minelayers do have technology that must be developed prior to their introduction, so you won't see them until later in the game, possibly after 1914. This isn't much, but its my opinions.
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Post by thatzenoguy on May 5, 2016 7:31:55 GMT -6
Hey, well, its damned plenty, and has informed me well.
So, training does NOT affect mothballs? Dah! Gotcha! That might be why they can't hit a barn...
A few more...
7: How should early destroyers be made? More gun than torpedo?
8: How do you prevent DD's from bumrushing you, and sinking all your ****?...
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 5, 2016 7:46:27 GMT -6
Hey, well, its damned plenty, and has informed me well. So, training does NOT affect mothballs? Dah! Gotcha! That might be why they can't hit a barn... A few more... 7: How should early destroyers be made? More gun than torpedo? 8: How do you prevent DD's from bumrushing you, and sinking all your ?... As far as destroyers, I would provide a good balance of high speed, adequate guns and torpedoes. Initially, until you get better torpedoes, the ranges are very short so you might not want to send them in hell for leather into a fleet action. They are to provide scouting, screening and when the core is in trouble, you can send them in as a flotilla attack to delay the enemy while you scamper away. They are good for polishing off a wounded opponent. As far as being rushed by tin cans, simply keep your large cruisers, armored cruisers and later battlecruisers and battleships away from the enemy destroyers, use the gunnery range circle and simply stand off and pound them, if they rush you turn and sail the other way. Don't present yourself broadside, you make a far better target. Hope that helps. My battle philosophy is that he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day. I don't like fleet engagements as they serve no useful purpose. I focus on trade warfare to wear the enemy down, I attack convoys unless they are protectED by a large fleet of armored cruisers, I don't like shore bombardments either, a ship that attacks a fort is fool, like Nelson said. Sometimes, I will refuse a battle, lose the points and then gain them back with submarine attacks. Just my opinions.
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Post by thatzenoguy on May 5, 2016 7:58:20 GMT -6
Dah! Thanks! ;D
Again, more mindless questions because I don't know the answers...
9: What is the difference between the three SS classes? Do minelayers actually lay mines?...
10: How do raiders work? I had 40 CL's in early game, and I sank a couple of ships per turn.
11: What is the purpose of AMC's? Are they worth it?...
12: How do you ensure good hit rates?
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chz
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by chz on May 5, 2016 10:14:14 GMT -6
12 is dumping as much research as possible into Fire Control. Should be set to "High" until you have improved director and director for secondaries. When you research a new fire control technology, rebuild all your ships as quickly as is prudent.
I'd like to hear the answer to 9, as well.
11 is a case of you're able to spit them out *fast*. They're disposed of at the end of the war, so in the long term they're a waste of resources. But sometimes you need more raiders Right. This. Second.
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Post by Fredrik W on May 5, 2016 11:00:43 GMT -6
Dah! Thanks! ;D 9: What is the difference between the three SS classes? Do minelayers actually lay mines?... Coastal subs have shorter endurance so will only appear reasonably close to your bases. They also sink fewer merchants for the same reason.
Minelaying subs do actually lay mines, not tactically but they contribute to the mine level in an area and thus to enemy-ship-striking-mine events in the strategic game. Otherwise they work as medium subs but with fewer torpedoes.
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Post by jwsmith26 on May 5, 2016 11:34:30 GMT -6
I agree with most of oldpop's opinions but I would add a few minor points.
1. Training does work in war. If you want to actually hit something then training helps a lot.
3. Another advantage of oil fired engines is that they give off less smoke, so if you are up-wind your exhaust will not obscure your targets as much.
4. Medium range is definitely the default for most ships but in certain circumstances short or longer ranges can be useful. If I'm building the legacy fleet myself and I know that my early wars will be fought in my home territory (think Austria Hungary) then I will give my destroyers short range. The usefulness of early destroyers is a pretty brief period so by the time I might need to move out of my home area I expect to be on my 2nd or 3rd generation of DDs. Longer ranges are good for cruisers used for raiding. If I know that I will be managing an overseas empire I'll install colonial service in most of my cruisers to allow them to count as a larger ship for basing requirements.
5. I install as many secondary and tertiary guns as the ship will allow, however I prioritize speed and armor first, and of course, main guns, though I seldom install more than 9 main guns. I see many, many hits achieved with secondaries and tertiaries in most battles - more hits than are scored with the main guns. I also stuff as many 5 inch guns as possible onto cruisers so they can sink destoyers. 5 inchers will also damage most cruisers, especially later in the game so I find that a heavy secondary is very useful for these ships.
6. I think there is a time period during which each tech is likely to appear but it seems pretty flexible. I have had games where one or both of these techs never show up but that's rare. As oldpop mentions you do need to invest in the right techs to get them.
7. I tend to prioritize torpedoes in destroyers. I'd rather have 2 extra chances to hit a battleship by installing 4 tubes instead of 2 tubes than install 2 extra pop-guns. I don't find destroyer gunfire particularly effective early on but a torp is always effective (assuming you hit something ;-). If it comes down to a choice between extra torps or extra speed I'll always go for torps. My later destroyers are often armed with 12 to 15 torpedo tubes and I often see 20+ torps in the water when the flotillas go in for an attack.
Oldpop and I have very different attitudes toward battle. I like fighting battles and use them as the primary means of winning a war. I don't find fleet battles useless but rather find them to be the quickest way to demolish the enemy fleet and win a war. You win wars by gaining victory points and the quickest way to do this is by sinking enemy ships. Sinking a single enemy battleship can net you many thousands of victory points. I've netted over 30,000 victory points for a single fleet battle. Achieving this through economic warfare (raiders and subs) takes a long time, however as oldpop indicates, it does work.
9. I'll let someone else handle most of the sub question - I seldom build them.
10. Raiders work by sinking enemy merchant ships. They probably should be relatively lightly armed, with speed and range prioritized over protection and firepower. The idea is to be able to run away from any intercepting enemy warships rather than fight them. A light armament is sufficient to take out their primary prey - enemy freighters. They tend to be interned for lack of fuel pretty quickly if they don't have at least long range. One thing that is quite useful is that raiders can run past a blockade, whereas your other combat ships are unable to leave a blockaded region. If you're going to go this route you'll probably want to create a fleet of purpose build cruisers for raiding. You mentioned you had some 40 cruisers. That would be a formidable raiding force if deployed en masse and I would think that you'd be sinking many more than "a couple of ships per turn".
Personally, I seldom build more than 4 or 5 light cruisers and 1 or 2 armored cruisers. Since I don't raid they are used almost exclusively as scouts during battles. I find my money is better spent on destroyers and capital ships, but remember that comes from the perspective a a player who fights a lot of battles.
11. AMCs are basically merchant ships that have been converted into raiders by installing a few guns. You use them just like raiders. They die quickly when intercepted or met in battle but will sink enemy merchant ships. They will not survive the end of the war and must be decommissioned and sold off when the war ends.
12. Hit rate is affected by two things - fire control and crew competency. Fire control improvements (achieved by investing tin the Fire control tech) come in two flavors. The most common advance occurs when the advance description includes the phrase "gradual national accuracy improvement" which provides incremental improvements to accuracy. No ship modifications are required to get the improvement. The other type of advance requires you to actually install the improved equipment in your ships. This requires a rebuild for existing ships but the accuracy improvement is often quite dramatic. Going into a battle with better fire control installed than the enemy has will often result in a 2 to 1 or better hit rate over the enemy.
The other way to improve your hit rate is to train your crew, either by actually training them or by using them in battle. The only way to achieve the highest crew efficiency, "elite" crew status, is via combat. Improving the crew also has other advantages such as improved damage repair rates. Unfortunately, your crew efficiency takes a hit when you rebuild a ship.
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Post by oldpop2000 on May 5, 2016 12:36:19 GMT -6
My natural reluctance to fight fleet engagements is built upon my own research in the subject. There are few major fleet engagements that actually had any real effect on the course of the war. I like to protect my fleet and keep it healthy, not expend it trying to gain points. However, I will agree that a few key fleet engagements can stop the opponent from engaging you, and you will win many scenarios without having to fight them. Judicious use of the fleet engagements is my style. Example: playing Germany and engaging in a war with the French, there is a scenario where you are expected attack French shipping and this leads you to the Dover Straits. This is a setup, because the French Battlefleet is always waiting for you, like the Greeks were waiting for the Persian's at Salamis. It's narrow and they have a decided advantage. I never engage in that action, as soon as I see two or more destroyers, I order flank speed and reverse course, heading for friendly waters. Many times the French fleet chases and becomes disorganized. Then I pounce and sink some tin cans or light cruisers. It hasn't failed me yet. BTW, if you retreat to your waters, you have coastal submarines to help and in many of these engagements, they have sunk BC's, CL's etc.
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Post by director on May 5, 2016 21:06:32 GMT -6
I have actually won wars by stopping all capital ship construction (heresy!) and concentrating on subs and raiders. I build AMCs with long or extreme range and reliability engines, give then relatively high speed (18 knots early on, faster later) to give them a chance to escape enemy cruisers, and I build 2-4 per turn until I can saturate the enemy home sea zone with 6 to 8 or even more. If you want to make an enemy collapse in revolution, this is a good way.
I always have to curb my natural aggressiveness in fleet actions. Sometimes, and especially if yours is the inferior fleet, it is better to maneuver until you can pull the enemy toward you and then slap them in the face with a mass destroyer charge. The French seem to be particularly prone to fall for this.
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Post by thatzenoguy on May 6, 2016 2:33:35 GMT -6
You mentioned you had some 40 cruisers. That would be a formidable raiding force if deployed en masse and I would think that you'd be sinking many more than "a couple of ships per turn"Oh trust me, I thought that would be the case, only sank 5 ships per turn, max. Oh trust me, I thought that would be the case, only sank 5 ships per turn, max. I found 99% of the raiders were intercepted, which makes little sense, considering the only interceptors in sufficient number could have been the DD's, because the enemy only had a few CA/CL/BB/BC...
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Post by director on May 6, 2016 11:10:35 GMT -6
I've never had more than 1 raider intercepted per sea-zone per turn. That's why if I build AMCs I build at least 2-4 per turn and saturate the enemy home area, building at least 1 per turn to keep those numbers up.
From what I've seen you will score an enormous number of merchant kills at first, then the number will dwindle and stop. The messages about enemy suffering, blockades and shortages will start up and then - some months later - the enemy will collapse.
If I have the budget - as Britain, the US, France or Germany - then I go for a big battle-fleet. If I don't have the funds to compete in capital ships then I emphasize cruisers, destroyers, submarines and AMCs.
An example of the latter was a recent try as the CSA. I got into an early war with Russia (not plausible, but... oh. well) and did not have a European ally. No way to project the battle fleet to Northern Europe and he wasn't coming out after me. After some months of stalemate I went to max production of AMCs, deployed my special 'raider' light cruisers and build about two dozen coastal submarines. I think it took two years, but his government collapsed.
Just saying that a pure commerce-raiding strategy can get you a win if your battle fleet can't. Of course, all the money you pour into AMCs evaporates at the end of the war, and your construction of capital ships suffers accordingly. But I think a win is better than a loss even so.
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Post by jwsmith26 on May 6, 2016 12:24:24 GMT -6
It's pretty funny that you think a war with Russia is implausible when you're playing with a navy built by the non-existent CSA. :-)
I'm not sure why you think you can't project your fleet into Northern Europe as the the CSA if you don't have an ally there. Sure, there is a cost in preparedness but you can certainly do it.
A weaker navy can take on a more powerful navy, you just need to pick your battles. With a weaker fleet you might avoid a fleet battles but if you wait for a "Battleship" engagement you'll find yourself in a battle that has fairly equal forces on each side. After you win a couple of those you can usually pare the enemy down to a level where a fleet battle is acceptable.
BTW, I've got nothing against the guerre de course strategy, it will gain you victories, there's no question about that. I just enjoy testing my designs in battle, even if I am the underdog and end up with a face full of torps :-).
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Post by director on May 6, 2016 20:22:34 GMT -6
Yes... yes, it is. ;0
You can move your fleet to Northern Europe but you can't keep it there. Ships begin to have * issues, or develop mechanical and fuel problems and have to be interned in neutral ports - or scuttled! And any ship damaged in battle is lost, at least for the duration of the war. It is possible to minimize the effects by swapping * ships back to North American East Coast, but the CSA can end up without enough ships to effectively blockade or fight. Mathematically, it just doesn't work for me. If I don't have the budget, I prefer to use my big, powerful cruisers to win individual and small-unit engagements and use commerce raiding to bleed the enemy.
Of course, if I DO have the budget then I prefer to have a competitive battle-fleet.
Just pointing out that there are several ways to work on the problems of naval strategy, and that the underdog can still come out on top.
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Post by thatzenoguy on May 6, 2016 22:00:44 GMT -6
Some more questions...
13: how do you start fires? What is the chance? What do fires even do?
14: What is the difference between Long and Extreme range?
15: How come when I defeat Italy (as Austria), they occasionally lose the war, but give me absolutely NOTHING...?
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