A.I. Ships and Ammunition Limit

[tortugapower]

Just a quick question about OPFOR ships (AI-controlled opponents) -- do they obey ammunition limit? Or are they allowed to shoot indefinitely (infinite ammo)?

I ask this because I have acquired numerous ships from the AI so far, but they always have very low ammo counts, leaving me to wonder if the AI runs out of ammo. Could be a new strategy to bleed them dry at range and then move in...

[thatzenoguy]

Recently I've had some fun shooting at people at the LONGEST range I can.

I'm unsure of they have unlimited ammo though...

[Fredrik W]

AI ships are (of course) limited by ammo carried just like player ships.

They should normally have at least 80 rounds per heavy gun, which was average for historical battleships.

[thatzenoguy]

Strangely enough, lategame, with 8-12 16 inch guns, I STILL run out of ammo before killing much...

[bcoopactual]

Jul 26, 2016 23:57:45 GMT -6 Fredrik W said:

AI ships are (of course) limited by ammo carried just like player ships.

They should normally have at least 80 rounds per heavy gun, which was average for historical battleships.

Not arguing the historical accuracy but, in game, 80 rounds would be way too few for a ship I designed. I usually won't accept less than 120 main gun rounds for B's and early BB's and my CA's and CL's carry around 160-180 rounds each for the main guns.
Otherwise, I run out of ammo way too early in a fight. My ships chew threw ammo like they are M & M's.
I would be interested in feedback from other players to see if my ammo loadouts are typical or excessive or maybe even too low.

If I'm not an outlier I might suggest that the AI designs have their minimum ammo loads increased.

While maybe not historically accurate, carrying more ammo would allow the AI to stay in the fight longer (80 rounds is what? One tenth of the number of turns in a fleet battle?) before it has to run, particularly in battleship engagements, which I think would make for a more fun game.

And I would like to thank you again. Regardless of whether or not this particular suggestion is enacted I would like you and your team to know that your responsiveness and interaction with the forum and the player's feedback is much appreciated. Bravo Zulu and many thanks.

[trenton59]

I usually run with ~150 rounds per gun for all main guns over 4 inches.

[rockmedic109]

120 is my usual starting level. 140-150 for destroyers. I almost never run out of ammo. I can get close to emptying the magazines in a long range stern chase. If I have any extra weight to play with, I'll add ammo.

[fightingflattops]

I assign 200 rounds early years when accuracy is low. Later on I assign 120 roounds. Rebuilds sometimes push me down to 80.

[joebob73]

I've been noticing that by mid-late game, I need 150+ rounds per gun for heavy ships. The massive fleet battles that usually happen end up taking so long that anything lower is going to leave my battle-line running dry early.

[Fredrik W]

Good discussion, thanks for the input!

ROF in RTW is considerably toned down from the theoretical numbers given by gun manufacturers (or used by some other games) but it may be that ROF is still too high in practice. It is notable that (as far as I remember) no ship at Jutland used more than half of its ammo, not even Hipper's much battled squadron. At the end of the battle several ships had various kinds of technical problems or hot guns not running out properly that affected ROF. It may be that RTW takes these factors insufficiently into account. I will take another look at this when practicable.

I also suspect that if almost everyone in RTW is loading up on extra ammo, the weight 'cost' of extra ammo may be too low. Or perhaps there should be an increased risk of magazine hits with extra ammo? If IRL ship constructors limited themselves to 80-90 rpg for heavy guns, they did so for good reasons, and these reasons may not be sufficiently taken into account in RTW.

[thatzenoguy]

I could we introduce some sort of protection system for the magazines?

More ammo=more weight to armour it all...

But then, should there be some sort of thickness to armour them?...

[tonewyork]

for 10" + guns I carry 125 rpg, 150 for 9"-7", 175 for Cls and 175 to 200 for DDs
I read somewhare that for a well drilled gun crew, the actual fire rate vs the reqested fire rate was 85%-90%. meaning that the average broadside for a 9 gun ship was 8 guns
I will say that the Iowa Class BB carried 105+ rounds with more then 105 charges or propellant per gun.

[joebob73]

Jul 27, 2016 10:06:52 GMT -6 Fredrik W said:

Good discussion, thanks for the input!

ROF in RTW is considerably toned down from the theoretical numbers given by gun manufacturers (or used by some other games) but it may be that ROF is still too high in practice. It is notable that (as far as I remember) no ship at Jutland used more than half of its ammo, not even Hipper's much battled squadron. At the end of the battle several ships had various kinds of technical problems or hot guns not running out properly that affected ROF. It may be that RTW takes these factors insufficiently into account. I will take another look at this when practicable.

I also suspect that if almost everyone in RTW is loading up on extra ammo, the weight 'cost' of extra ammo may be too low. Or perhaps there should be an increased risk of magazine hits with extra ammo? If IRL ship constructors limited themselves to 80-90 rpg for heavy guns, they did so for good reasons, and these reasons may not be sufficiently taken into account in RTW.

Oh, they are. I prefer to fight at long range, where deck armor is the most important thing, and accuracy is generally lower. I also tend to have far fewer ships than my opponents, due to playing as the USA and having to cover both coasts, while opposing countries can usually keep their entire battlefleet together. For that reason, each individual ship tends to need to carry much more ammunition so I don't run out after the fleet spends 20 minutes shelling an already sinking hulk. I try to load enough ammunition so one ship can sink 2-3 of their opposite number in the enemy fleet, so I don't have to disengage early.

Edit: it does take a LOT of weight to put more ammo in, but using only 5" secondaries with light armor in double turrets saves enough to let me take 110-125 rounds instead of the usual 90-100.

[director]

Based on Tsushima, the pre-WW1 expectation was that gunnery would be good and a decision quickly reached, usually by pressing combat to close range. The pre-WW2 expectation varied from navy to navy with the US expecting to fight at long range and Germany, Japan and Britain at close range. But as far as I know, somewhere around 100 rounds per gun remained the standard.

I don't think your rate-of-fire calculations are that far off, I think it is that RtW does not correctly model how salvos were managed. Most WW1-era navies would not fire full salvos all the time; instead they would use a few guns to fire ranging shots and, when confident that they had a solution, go to firing full salvoes. After a few salvos they would decide whether to keep pouring it on or revert to ranging fire until a new solution was found.

Germany went to a different process before WW2, firing full salvos from the first and correcting them as needed. This was because the German rangefinder was very accurate early on but tended to become less accurate as the engagement went on (vibration, smoke, spray, etc). British and American rangefinders used a different system and tended to be inaccurate at first but become more accurate as combat was prolonged.

Generally I use 105 rounds for capital ships, 120 for 8"-gunned CAs, 130 for light cruisers and 140 or so per DD.

[bcoopactual]

Jul 27, 2016 10:06:52 GMT -6 Fredrik W said:

Good discussion, thanks for the input!

ROF in RTW is considerably toned down from the theoretical numbers given by gun manufacturers (or used by some other games) but it may be that ROF is still too high in practice. It is notable that (as far as I remember) no ship at Jutland used more than half of its ammo, not even Hipper's much battled squadron. At the end of the battle several ships had various kinds of technical problems or hot guns not running out properly that affected ROF. It may be that RTW takes these factors insufficiently into account. I will take another look at this when practicable.

I also suspect that if almost everyone in RTW is loading up on extra ammo, the weight 'cost' of extra ammo may be too low. Or perhaps there should be an increased risk of magazine hits with extra ammo? If IRL ship constructors limited themselves to 80-90 rpg for heavy guns, they did so for good reasons, and these reasons may not be sufficiently taken into account in RTW.

LOL, chalk that one up to 'be careful what you ask for'.
I just wanted the bad guys to be able to carry more ammo so they could stay in the fight longer.  But if you can balance the concepts you listed above to make the game more realistic I'll live with suffering through more draws.