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Post by jwsmith26 on Sept 21, 2016 9:41:05 GMT -6
Sorry to dig this up for a very tangentially related question, but this made me think of something: Has anyone had much luck with torpedo cruisers in the game? I haven't tried since last year, but my results then were spectacularly... disappointing, actually. I waited until DDs proved my long-range torpedo tech effective in late game, then built whole classes of medium-sized CLs with 8 tubes per side. On paper they looked great and I thought I could have them firing all 16 in quick succession. In practice though, they ended up almost never firing at anywhere near max range, and when they did, it was usually just one or two torpedoes at a time, but never salvo shooting. The time in between shots would also be longer than the tubes' reload time, after which I concluded that any more than 2 tubes per side on a CL is a waste, and never bothered with them again. I assumed this just had to do with AI routines for CLs, which were inherited from WWI SAI, where torpedo cruisers were not actually a thing, and all ships except DDs used torpedoes defensively and sparingly. Anyone had better luck with this than me? In a recent game when "the Man" demanded that I build a bunch of cruisers I decided I'd build a class of torpedo cruisers. They were 3500 tons and lightly armed with 4" guns but packed 20 torpedo tubes, all on the centerline. They looked absolutely deadly. In practice, they were a complete disaster. I built 5 of them and only one had any success at all. They simply refused to fire their torpedoes at enemy warships regardless of how near or far the enemy was located. (You can take a look at them here: nws-online.proboards.com/thread/354/post-best-ship-designs?page=21)Here's the comment Fredrik made regarding these ships: "The AI is not geared to using light cruisers as torpedo platforms. This design would probably perform better if the AI used it as a sort of super DD, but it won't." So, no, it's not a particularly useful to overload your cruisers with torpedoes. A few torpedoes can be useful but installing lot of tubes is probably not going to net you much.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 21, 2016 9:46:38 GMT -6
I find that torpedo CL's are not good at 'attacking' enemies with torps, but they EXCELL when you find yourself in a close range shootout.
Some of my bigger CL torpedo batteries fire upwards of 20 torpedoes in a few turns.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Sept 21, 2016 9:54:16 GMT -6
I find that torpedo CL's are not good at 'attacking' enemies with torps, but they EXCELL when you find yourself in a close range shootout. Some of my bigger CL torpedo batteries fire upwards of 20 torpedoes in a few turns. Hmm, that's certainly a different experience than mine. Could you post some more details about those designs? I'd like to see if you're doing something unique.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 21, 2016 10:11:02 GMT -6
I find that torpedo CL's are not good at 'attacking' enemies with torps, but they EXCELL when you find yourself in a close range shootout. Some of my bigger CL torpedo batteries fire upwards of 20 torpedoes in a few turns. Hmm, that's certainly a different experience than mine. Could you post some more details about those designs? I'd like to see if you're doing something unique. Don't have any pictures on me right now, but 8 kiloton cruisers, roughly 28-30+ knots speed, with as many quad tubes on the sides as possible. They'll launch in daylight, but at night, when ranges are like...1 kilometer, they SPAM them everywhere.
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Post by trenton59 on Sept 21, 2016 11:10:26 GMT -6
Yeah, the closer you are the more often ships fire torpedoes it seems.
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Post by Bullethead on Sept 21, 2016 15:28:13 GMT -6
Sorry to dig this up for a very tangentially related question, but this made me think of something: Has anyone had much luck with torpedo cruisers in the game? I haven't tried since last year, but my results then were spectacularly... disappointing, actually. I waited until DDs proved my long-range torpedo tech effective in late game, then built whole classes of medium-sized CLs with 8 tubes per side. On paper they looked great and I thought I could have them firing all 16 in quick succession. In practice though, they ended up almost never firing at anywhere near max range, and when they did, it was usually just one or two torpedoes at a time, but never salvo shooting. The time in between shots would also be longer than the tubes' reload time, after which I concluded that any more than 2 tubes per side on a CL is a waste, and never bothered with them again. I assumed this just had to do with AI routines for CLs, which were inherited from WWI SAI, where torpedo cruisers were not actually a thing, and all ships except DDs used torpedoes defensively and sparingly. Anyone had better luck with this than me? Hmmm.... I believe the AI might well have something to do with this. I bet it only knows how to take aimed shots at specific targets, not "browning shots" at the enemy mass in general. The main reason for carrying lots of tubes, either on individual ships or collectively in the whole battle line, was to fire into the crowd with the reasonable prospect of getting a few hits and maybe getting many. But if the AI can only take aimed shots, this won't happen. Which brings up a question..... How many fire control positions did your torp cruisers have? Doesn't the number of positions dictate the number of targets you can engage simultaneously? If the usual drill for aimed shots is 1 tube mount per target, then having more mounts than fire control wouldn't do you much good. But anyway, for a time the Grand Fleet was quite afraid of a browning barrage coming from the High Seas Fleet (due to an over-estimation of German torpedo performance), although the later bigger torps on ships like Lützow were definitely intended for this. The Brits were prepared to retaliate in kind, however, and at Jutland quite a few, perhaps the majority, of Brit capital ships fired torpedoes. The German capital ships don't seem to have fired as many, most likely due to the geometry of the BB engagements with the Brits crossing the German T.
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Post by director on Sept 21, 2016 15:36:13 GMT -6
Long range torpedo fire never did accomplish much of anything.
I'll second Xeno's comment - I built a class of CLs with a battery of 12x5" and 8 TT per side. They were excellent DD killers and, in the one engagement I had with reduced visibility, helped 'paint the ocean' with torpedo tracks.
I haven't done anything with that type since, mainly because I'm not convinced they can win against a more conventional cruiser in a one-on-one.
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Post by jwsmith26 on Sept 21, 2016 16:43:15 GMT -6
My batch of torpedo cruisers was even more lightly armed with an embarrassing total of two 4" guns. I sacrificed too much to make sure all the launchers were centerline. I couldn't go above 3500 tons. That meant they were thin skinned and their 29 knots was too slow for their role in the early 20's. This parsimony meant they also carried just one fire director.
They were not meant to be serious designs but more of an insult to the management for their ridiculous request. They had the additional advantage of being quite cheap. Then I found that they acted like a cancer in my cruiser formations - replacing my good ships with bad ships when they were deployed. I probably should have scrapped them quickly but I was curious to see how they performed in various roles. Short answer - terribly. And that terrible performance was a direct result of their (uh, my) terrible design.
So overall, I would say that it was not wise to use this pathetic class as the basis for any opinion about anything in the game. I'm definitely going to be building some CLs that are better balanced with sufficient torpedo launchers to be effective and give them another try.
I've played dozens of games of RTW. It's pretty cool that there are still new things to try after that many play-throughs.
I do have one question for Bullethead. You mentioned that the number of fire control postions could impact the number of launchers that could be fired at once. Are you sure that is the way it works in RTW?
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Post by Bullethead on Sept 21, 2016 18:57:14 GMT -6
I do have one question for Bullethead. You mentioned that the number of fire control postions could impact the number of launchers that could be fired at once. Are you sure that is the way it works in RTW? No, I was asking that as a question. I don't know the answer. But it wouldn't surprise me if # of control positions was the upper limit on # of targets.
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Post by Fredrik W on Sept 21, 2016 19:02:16 GMT -6
I do have one question for Bullethead. You mentioned that the number of fire control postions could impact the number of launchers that could be fired at once. Are you sure that is the way it works in RTW? No, I was asking that as a question. I don't know the answer. But it wouldn't surprise me if # of control positions was the upper limit on # of targets. Fire control positions are for artillery only. They do not affect torpedoes. A ship will not fire torpedoes at more than one target in a turn.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 21, 2016 20:46:05 GMT -6
To extrapolate, my torpedo cruisers (Well, my ONLY lategame cruisers...) have all the mines they can carry, all the torpedo tubes they can carry, roughly the cap of armour (Armour on lategame CL is nigh useless anyway...), and 8 6 inch guns.
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Post by Bullethead on Sept 21, 2016 20:49:38 GMT -6
Fire control positions are for artillery only. They do not affect torpedoes. A ship will not fire torpedoes at more than one target in a turn. Thanks for the info. Does the number of fire control positions affect the number of artillery targets? IOW, do you need 5 positions to fire the main battery at 1 target and the secondaries and tertiiaries at 1 target each per side? But back to torpedoes... From what you say, I take it that: - Ships only take aimed torp shots at specific targets, not browning shots at the general mass
- Ships don't want to waste beaucoup torps on 1 target so only shoot a few torps if many are available, like just 1 mount's worth out of multiple mounts
Is that correct?
For RTW2, it might be nice to allow for mass barrages of all available torps as browning shots. Or allow ship design to have more than 1 torpedo fire control position to engage multiple targets at once. Or both.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 21, 2016 20:59:25 GMT -6
I wonder if we could have a 'fire at will at enemy fleet' command, so DD/CL/Etc could fire madly at the entire enemy group, instead of targets.
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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 21, 2016 23:36:55 GMT -6
Fire control positions are for artillery only. They do not affect torpedoes. A ship will not fire torpedoes at more than one target in a turn. Thanks for the info. Does the number of fire control positions affect the number of artillery targets? IOW, do you need 5 positions to fire the main battery at 1 target and the secondaries and tertiiaries at 1 target each per side? But back to torpedoes... From what you say, I take it that: - Ships only take aimed torp shots at specific targets, not browning shots at the general mass
- Ships don't want to waste beaucoup torps on 1 target so only shoot a few torps if many are available, like just 1 mount's worth out of multiple mounts
Is that correct?
For RTW2, it might be nice to allow for mass barrages of all available torps as browning shots. Or allow ship design to have more than 1 torpedo fire control position to engage multiple targets at once. Or both.
Fredrik W posted this a little over a year ago. I'm assuming they haven't changed the rules in game since then: "All above one is just redundancy. Ships will not split fire in RTW. They did so extremely rarely in reality, and I know no case in the period." He was referring to the number of fire control positions. Here's the thread: nws-online.proboards.com/thread/462/fire-control-whichSo, it's a bit if an educated guess but I believe that the most targets that can be shot at at one time by a ship is one main gun target and one secondary/tertiary target on each side for a total of three maximum. Someone please correct me if they know differently.
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Post by Bullethead on Sept 22, 2016 9:49:21 GMT -6
posted this a little over a year ago. I'm assuming they haven't changed the rules in game since then: "All above one is just redundancy. Ships will not split fire in RTW. They did so extremely rarely in reality, and I know no case in the period." He was referring to the number of fire control positions. Here's the thread: nws-online.proboards.com/thread/462/fire-control-whichSo, it's a bit if an educated guess but I believe that the most targets that can be shot at at one time by a ship is one main gun target and one secondary/tertiary target on each side for a total of three maximum. Someone please correct me if they know differently. So, do you need additional fire control positions for your 2ndaries to shoot at a different target than the main battery?
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