17inc
New Member
Posts: 4 
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Post by 17inc on Sept 1, 2016 23:28:33 GMT -6
hi guys been playing the game for some time now I would like away to turn off the R&D in to guns off lets say I don't need 1,2 or 3incs guns I should be abele to turn off funding in to quality or caliber of gun you don't need lets say there's a treaty in place for 20,000 ton BBs with 12inc guns then I should turn off all Research for guns that 13 inc guns and above there no point having treaty in place to have a 14inc guns pop out the research when you need new 12inc guns in game .
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 2, 2016 0:09:59 GMT -6
Nope, you can't do that.
You don't control the scientists, only how much 'effort' is put into each area of tech.
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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 2, 2016 4:30:25 GMT -6
17inc, I read the Washington and 1st London treaties and I couldn't find any prohibitions on research and development for larger gun sizes (It's certainly possible I missed it, I'm not a lawyer and the treaties are written in their language) but according to Navweaps, the US discontinued research on their 18in design when the Washington treaty went into effect and didn't revive it until 1941 after the treaties were no longer in effect due to the war. It would certainly seem to violate the spirit of a treaty to research larger than allowed gun sizes. However, if it's not strictly forbidden, you wouldn't want to get caught flat footed if everybody else has researched 13in and 14in guns and you stayed at 12in, to use your example, when the treaty expires. I know what you mean by wanting research concentrated in the calibers that you actually use. Except for 5in secondaries, I don't use odd caliber guns so when I see 9in guns get a +1 model, I feel like I wasted the research when actually the right answer is I should use the 9in +1 because in most ways it's better than the 10in 0 model. It's one of the features of the game that as CNO, you don't exactly know what breakthrough your scientists are going to make next so you don't get to see what they are working on just the general area but I agree that you should probably be able to select various calibers of gun that you don't use and turn off research for those calibers. I don't see that as inconsistent with the influence and authority of the Chief of the Navy. Now whether it's actually doable within the programming code or whether it's worth the trouble and time to make happen are questions I can't answer.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 2, 2016 4:42:20 GMT -6
I honestly don't get the point of the OP though...
If you get a +1 quality gun, good on you, use it...
The bug which made big guns unresearchable is now gone, so with the right nation and research options, you can easily get the biggest guns with ease...
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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 2, 2016 5:12:35 GMT -6
At the risk of putting words in his mouth I believe what he is saying is "why are my engineers designing +1 2in guns when none of my ships use them. Why didn't they work on improved 5 or 6in guns that all of my ships carry." It's not an unreasonable question.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 2, 2016 5:16:22 GMT -6
At the risk of putting words in his mouth I believe what he is saying is "why are my scientists researching +1 2in guns when none of my ships use them. Why didn't they work on improved 5 or 6in guns that all of my ships carry." It's not an unreasonable question. I find it unreasonable. ALL navies looked into weird concepts, including making better, smaller, guns. Look at say, IJN, ALL their DP mounts were 5 inch, but go figures they tried making a good 3.9 inch mount. |
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Post by HolyDragoon on Sept 2, 2016 5:40:24 GMT -6
Sure, but given the game mechanics (you get +1, and that's it), it ends up being kinda meh. No real gain on it.
A compromise would be adjusting weight classes, at least one of those could be turned off. You want heavy guns? Turn light gun research off to raise the probability of having a heavy gun improvement. It's not guaranteed, but it does give you some amount of control.
You can't control your researchers, but you can give them guidelines.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 2, 2016 5:46:25 GMT -6
Sure, but given the game mechanics (you get +1, and that's it), it ends up being kinda meh. No real gain on it. A compromise would be adjusting weight classes, at least one of those could be turned off. You want heavy guns? Turn light gun research off to raise the probability of having a heavy gun improvement. It's not guaranteed, but it does give you some amount of control. You can't control your researchers, but you can give them guidelines. You're only the head of what is built, and such, you can't make scientists make stuff up which they simply cannot. And frankly, unless the research is REALLY randomly skewed, you'll still make enough big guns... |
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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 2, 2016 5:47:12 GMT -6
The 10cm/65 I believe you are referring to was designed primarily as an anti-aircraft gun so it's not really relevant to a discussion regarding RTW. The USN didn't field (or even test that I'm aware of) any odd caliber naval gun greater than 5" in the entire 20th Century other than on early 1890's design old battleships. They didn't build modern 11, 13 and 15in guns like the European navies for reasons that are unknown to me. So if a player is emulating that, then why would they want research time and money spent on improving 9 or 11in guns? If one wanted to argue for play balance or historical consistency or for whatever reason that the large gun sizes need to be invented in order then fine but when engineering improved models it makes sense for the player to be able to concentrate on already in-use calibers or calibers that he plans to upgrade to in the future.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 2, 2016 5:53:09 GMT -6
The 10cm/65 I believe you are referring to was designed primarily as an anti-aircraft gun so it's not really relevant to a discussion regarding RTW. The USN didn't field (or even test that I'm aware of) any odd caliber naval gun greater than 5" in the entire 20th Century other than on early 1890's design old battleships. They didn't build modern 11, 13 and 15in guns like the European navies for reasons that are unknown to me. So if a player is emulating that, then why would they want research time and money spent on improving 9 or 11in guns? If one wanted to argue for play balance or historical consistency or for whatever reason that the large gun sizes need to be invented in order then fine but when engineering improved models it makes sense for the player to be able to concentrate on already in-use calibers or calibers that he plans to upgrade to in the future. The game isn't 100% accurate, every nation has the same research system, else it'd get complicated REAL quick... Imagine Germany never gettng PROPER all or nothing armour, and USN having the only superheavy shells, none of the nations using quads barring a few clunky ships, etc. |
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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 2, 2016 6:01:08 GMT -6
The research system is already designed so that some techs can be skipped with no guarantee that your researchers will go back to it. Probably not the important ones like AoN but losing out on research items is a thing.
Doesn't matter, I tried to explain in my previous post I have no problem with the current system for inventing larger calibers. I'm just carrying the OP's banner for being able to have more say so over the improvement of already invented calibers.
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Post by thatzenoguy on Sept 2, 2016 6:07:36 GMT -6
Doesn't matter, I tried to explain in my previous post I have no problem with the current system for inventing larger calibers. I'm just carrying the OP's banner for being able to have more say so over the improvement of already invented calibers. I'd agree too...But I have never heard of any head of Navy guy 'ask' for specific techs/guns... Maybe some random events like 'X (X being guy in charge for navy tech) has recieved extra funds and asks for your opinion on what we should look into' Then options like 'big guns' 'small guns' 'torpedoes' etc? |
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Post by axe99 on Sept 2, 2016 6:37:21 GMT -6
The research system is already designed so that some techs can be skipped with no guarantee that your researchers will go back to it. Probably not the important ones like AoN but losing out on research items is a thing. Doesn't matter, I tried to explain in my previous post I have no problem with the current system for inventing larger calibers. I'm just carrying the OP's banner for being able to have more say so over the improvement of already invented calibers. I've gone through to 1925 without getting AoN before (which always hurts, it's a great weight saver). On topic, I like the RtW system, including the gun research, but given RtW is only about surface combat, perhaps there'd be value in gun research dropping sub 4" calibre research after about 1912? I think after that, most DDs were moving to 4", and the new 3" guns being designed were (by and large) with aircraft in mind. I'm not 100% on this though (not really much of 50% really), so if I've missed something here, shout out. In terms of 4" guns, there were new 4.5" guns being designed (quite successfully, too) in WW2, so if once you get past that 3" barrier, it's likely that the guns designed will be useful. I am (very much) a fan of the general randomness. I'm quite sure the British wanted to do a better job on the 16" guns they put on the Nelson class, but at the end of the day research and development is a fickle thing. |
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Post by bcoopactual on Sept 2, 2016 6:45:55 GMT -6
I'm not advocating being able to pick and choose the exact caliber to improve next. That's too far in the other direction. Navies don't generally put all of their eggs in one basket and it wouldn't account for private companies funding their own research like maybe some engineer at Krupp has an epiphany and the next thing you know they make a breakthrough on 13in guns that you don't normally use but it gives you the option to adopt it. I'm thinking personally something like having checkboxes on the guns page in the research screen and having the option to deselect a limited number of calibers so that research won't be wasted in those calibers (i.e. 2, 3, and 4in guns when you have moved up to 5in guns for your destroyers and all of your larger ships' secondaries). Whatever would be easiest for the developers to implement that gives a limited amount of control over what guns get improved. I am (very much) a fan of the general randomness. I'm quite sure the British wanted to do a better job on the 16" guns they put on the Nelson class, but at the end of the day research and development is a fickle thing. Hey Axe good to hear from you as always. I think you are kind of proving my point here about having some influence on improvements. The British fully intended an upgrade and started prototyping a new 16" gun for the Lions because they weren't happy with the 16" guns on the Nelsons. |
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Post by fredsanford on Sept 2, 2016 7:07:21 GMT -6
Remember there's an army research establishment that may be more interested in smaller calibers, so unused (by the navy) calibers research could very well be a consequence of that. Plus the game design intentionally tries to make it difficult to prevent gamey 'tech tree' manipulation, which is a good thing IMO.
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