|
|
Post by JagdFlanker on Nov 28, 2016 8:19:20 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 28, 2016 14:15:55 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by axe99 on Nov 28, 2016 14:41:46 GMT -6
There was also a British scheme at some point to (I think) convert one of the unfinished Lions into a CV-BB hybrid (backed by one of the Admirals, but someone with more sense shut it down!) While I think in the 1940s, and possibly into the 1950s if there was actually an opposing battlefleet, the BB may have had a role to play, I can't see any sense in joining it in the same unit with a CV!
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Nov 28, 2016 17:54:34 GMT -6
There was also a British scheme at some point to (I think) convert one of the unfinished Lions into a CV-BB hybrid (backed by one of the Admirals, but someone with more sense shut it down!) While I think in the 1940s, and possibly into the 1950s if there was actually an opposing battlefleet, the BB may have had a role to play, I can't see any sense in joining it in the same unit with a CV! I am certain the British designed a few hybrids and decided like the US did, that it was a poor idea. The IJN is the only one to actually convert two battleships to hybrids and those turned out to be just worthless, IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by vonfriedman on Dec 4, 2016 7:41:58 GMT -6
Are you suggesting that in RtW2 it should be possible to build hybrids such as the Swedish cruiser Gotland and/or to convert BB as Hyuga etc.?
|
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Dec 4, 2016 8:29:37 GMT -6
We should be able to build hybrids in RTW2, as well as carriers with mulltiple flying off decks, and airships that carry fighters. All of these concepts (or should I say contraptions) actually existed, with countries spending millions to design, build, crew and operate them for many years.
It's obvious now that they were not great ideas but at the time they apparently seemed like completely viable designs to the international naval establishment, which as a group, is not generally given to wild-ass designs. If these guys went there, then we, as players simulating them should be allowed the same latitude to create these totally cool but hopelessly flawed contraptions.
|
|
|
|
Post by JagdFlanker on Dec 4, 2016 9:05:53 GMT -6
We should be able to build hybrids in RTW2, as well as carriers with mulltiple flying off decks, and airships that carry fighters. All of these concepts (or should I say contraptions) actually existed, with countries spending millions to design, build, crew and operate them for many years. It's obvious now that they were not great ideas but at the time they apparently seemed like completely viable designs to the international naval establishment, which as a group, is not generally given to wild-ass designs. If these guys went there, then we, as players simulating them should be allowed the same latitude to create these totally cool but hopelessly flawed contraptions. one of my oft-repeated sayings - there's only one way to find out... |
|
|
|
Post by bcoopactual on Dec 4, 2016 9:32:16 GMT -6
I think the fact that almost all of those hybrids are paper designs only and only the Japanese were desperate enough to build them speaks against them being viable designs.
If the developers can put it in the game great but players who build them should get clobbered in game as would have happened in real life against purpose built CV's and BB's and hopefully the AI is programmed to avoid them.
|
|
|
|
Post by JagdFlanker on Dec 4, 2016 10:13:47 GMT -6
if these radical design types are introduced before 'viable' carrier tech is researched then there's a window of opportunity for a country to build them and have a (temporary) slight edge over other countries which may have no carrier based naval air power. sometimes that small edge is worth the large cost, and if you have one of those 'nonviable' carriers in a war with even say 4 torp bombers on it and the enemy has no carriers launched yet, the enemy is going to be more reserved in their operations to keep that small amount of carrier air power at arms length from their capital ships
i'm just theorizing how naval aviation tech would work in RtW2, but say there are 4 different carrier-based aircraft you have to research to 'properly' equip carriers:
recon aircraft
fighters
level bombers > dive bombers
torp bombers
say you'v only got a single 'nonviable' carrier but you have fighters researched so your carrier has 6 fighters stationed on it. the enemy has a brand new 'viable' carrier that can hold 18 aircraft but only has level bombers researched. which country has the actual advantage at this moment in time? those 6 fighters on the already nearing obsolescence carrier can freely maul those 18 level bombers and outside of self-defense guns on the bombers or assistance from land based air cover there's nothing the country with the shiny new 'viable' carrier can do about it
also i'v just started lowering my RtW game research to 60% to make the mid-game last longer and i'm already noticing a significant change in the way i build my capital ships since they will be useful for longer in my games - this would apply doubly so in RtW2 with much longer tech trees. if you were able to stretch the 1900 to 1950 tech trees to 1900-2000 there would be a bigger window where these 'nonviable' designs might be able to flourish before newer 'viable' carriers start launching
|
|
|
|
Post by HolyDragoon on Dec 4, 2016 10:25:13 GMT -6
We might also find a specific playstyle which makes some of said hybrids somewhat viable within the strategies of the player. The fact that it was a big fail in history does not imply an automatic fail ingame.
Of course, nothing comes to mind right now, but any theories right now would probably be just wishful thinking.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldpop2000 on Dec 4, 2016 10:36:50 GMT -6
The major reason for the failure of the hybrid carrier is the increased weight of carrier aircraft. This increased weight increased the takeoff and landing distances for these aircraft, regardless of the arresting and launching systems that were used. A hybrid carrier just did not have the deck length to handle the carrier aircraft of the middle and late 1930's. Here are some examples of the power to weight ratio of some WWII aircraft. We must consider power to weight ratios. These ratios were low for propeller driven aircraft. When we moved to jet engine power, we now talk about thrust to weight ratios. It's the same issue, the amount of power as a ratio of the amount of weight. F4F Wildcat - 1200 hp per 7406 lbs. loaded F6F Hellcat - 2000 hp per 11381 lbs. loaded F4U Corsair - 2000 hp per 11878 lbs. loaded A6M2 Zero -925 hp per 5155 lbs. loaded BF 109E-3 - 1100 hp per 5875 lbs. loaded FW 190 A-4 - 1700 hp per 10800 lbs. loaded. Here is a complete list of specs for WWII aircraft. You can find a similar list for mid-1930's to late 1930's aircraft if you look around. acepilots.com/planes/specs.htmlThe main reasons that hybrid carriers or as they were called flight deck cruisers, was to get as much out of the tonnage limitations of the Washington Naval Treaty. With no treaty, no nation, would have bothered to design let alone build these flight deck cruisers. Economics during the Great Depression and the newer technology simply overtook the concept. I believe that we should have the flight deck cruisers in RTW-2. Some nations like Italy and others might have had a good use for them, however, with the length and width of the Mediterranean, long ranged land based aircraft would have made them a hazard to use. There are only two real uses for such designs: combat air patrols and ASW; scouting for the fleet. |
|
|
|
Post by HolyDragoon on Dec 4, 2016 10:52:16 GMT -6
Also, late game might see technologies like primitive helicopters and the like. While they'd probably only be useful for ASW, or probably give a bonus to colony attack/defense (somehow), it would nevertheless be interesting to watch.
|
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Dec 4, 2016 11:13:58 GMT -6
Something similar can be said about multi-flying off decks. When they were built the aircraft assigned to carriers were able to make use of these additional decks because the planes embarked were small and light and required very little deck length to get into the air. Within just a few years aircraft grew in size and weight and were no longer able to use the lower decks to take off making these carriers much less valuable. They were all rebuilt to either remove or render unusable their lower decks. But for a time it is quite possible they would have been a viable solution had a war occurred.
Its also worth noting that the idea took a long time to die out. Several of the Essex class carriers were equipped with hangar deck catapults that could launch planes obliquely from the hangar deck. These were not well liked by the aviators because they fired the planes sideways and so close to the water that recovery was almost impossible if anything went wrong. They were seldom used and most were eventually removed, but the idea of launching from the hangar deck certainly had legs well into the 40's.
The fighter/scout carrying airships failed because airships, in general, were just too fragile. Both the Macon and Akron went down in storms, as did most of the other rigid airships of the USN. Prior to that they did have some success using their embarked aircraft to scout for the fleet during exercises, though I believe the airships themselves were "shot down" (sometimes more than once in the same exercise :-) in each "Fleet Problem" in which they participated. It is worth noting that this did not stop the USN from using airships, but they did stop using rigid airships. The USN operated around 150 non-rigid airships in WWII, using them primarily as ASW platforms, a role they performed quite well.
|
|
|
|
Post by jwsmith26 on Dec 4, 2016 11:23:04 GMT -6
Also, late game might see technologies like primitive helicopters and the like. While they'd probably only be useful for ASW, or probably give a bonus to colony attack/defense (somehow), it would nevertheless be interesting to watch. The USN was definitely experimenting with helicopters and planned to use them primarily for medical evacuation and emergency supplies, both roles in which they had success a few years later in Korea. Since the game goes to 1950 I would expect helicopters to be allowed. There were quite a number of jets in use by 1950 so I would expect these to be included as well. This has implications for the design of carriers in much the same way that the transition to heavier aircraft in the 20's and 30's forced changes to carrier design. I can't wait to see how the RTW2 team handles these new (at the time) inventions. |
|
|
|
Post by boomboomf22 on Dec 4, 2016 11:53:35 GMT -6
The Germans had both auto gyros and real helicopters in ww2, with a number being used by the kriegsmarine. They didn't see widespread use cause the Luftwaffe were derps and "saw no possible combat use for such an aircraft"
|
|
