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Post by noshurviverse on Apr 19, 2019 18:54:39 GMT -6
DRM is a rather touchy subject, I do have some concerns I'd like to bring up. I have a home computer that is my primary system that I use on a daily basis. Obviously this is where the majority of my RtW playtime comes from. But I also have a laptop I bring with me on long trips and RtW is a fantastic time-killer on flights. So would I be required to purchase multiple copies of RtW2 to continue doing this, or can I "just" request a separate code?
Next, I recently upgraded my computer system, in fact going to a whole new build altogether. Not only that, but a few years beforehand I had a hard-drive failure. And before that I swapped out my GPU for a better one. Would all those changes require requesting a new access code?
What happens if for whatever reason, the ability to provide these codes is disrupted? Does RtW2 essentially 'die' at that point? There's a Youtuber I quite enjoy, Ross Scott. He focuses on reviewing older, more obscure games and discussing gaming issues. One of his biggest focuses is on preserving games, and fighting against systems that put games at risk. Sure, RtW2 might not seem at risk now, but what about 10 years down the line? 20? What if the unthinkable happens to it's creator? That might possibly lead to the situation where piracy is the only way to play RtW2.
Also, if I understand this correctly, we now have three codes that need management? Serial, Unlock and "Machine"? Or are two of those the same thing?
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Post by yemo on Apr 19, 2019 18:55:11 GMT -6
Thanks, looking forward to see...if tied to hardware in anyway (or license key based on hardware profile), I might be out of the running for the game. Can't imagine how else it would restrict to a specific PC but will wait to hear.
That is is pretty much what the anti-piracy system does. I am curious (and please don't feel obligated to answer if you do not wish to), why would this cause you to not purchase the game? Bear in mind that I am asking not to judge your decision, but to understand the 'whys' of it better, which may help us with future decisions on such matters.
The thought of having to request a new key from obscure individual websites for every software in use at the moment for every hardware change I do turns my stomach. Also one justification for that price for this particular (or other) low graphics games is, that I can play it on a business trip on a subnotebook or at home on my pc, I simply have to auto-sync the savegame folder.
Seeing people pirate your product is a hard thing. Making your product less attractive for your paying customers as a "countermeasure" is something I remember from the last decade.
Do you honestly think that this hardware lock "countermeasure" from last decade will motivate potential pirates to buy the game from you? And in greater numbers than you lose customers to the pirating channels where they will get a better (less restrictive) product, just a bit later? Because that is how it worked last decade. Until people were offered an easier/more convenient way to obtain the product legally (and to update and so on)?
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 19, 2019 19:23:30 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification on the system on the Dev Journal. So if I understood correctly we need to generate a hardware based code with the game software, then send it by some mean for authentication (together with the serial key?) and then we receive an unlock code for the game tied to the hardware? I don't think anyone is a fan of such a system but there are far worse ones out there and still in use (e.g. finite number of hardware tied serial keys). I think I can live with it and it won't affect my decision to purchase. Not only that, but a few years beforehand I had a hard-drive failure. And before that I swapped out my GPU for a better one. Would all those changes require requesting a new access code? I think I have had hardware based licenses become invalid just from adding a new hard drive.
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Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
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Post by Warspite on Apr 19, 2019 19:26:08 GMT -6
Will I be able to have the game installed on my desktop and laptop at the same time? I've read the post about anti-piracy measures but I still can't discern if I can have the game installed on two computers at the same time. That is a good question - right now we are looking at limiting to just a single machine at a time, but we will discuss (internally) the option to allow for 2 machines at a time...I cant make a promise either way right now. Thanks! Thanks for the reply. I have to say I am quite disappointed by the decision to include this anti-piracy measure. I can fully understand why this decision has been taken but it does seem as if legitimate customers will have to jump through these hoops if they want to buy the game, support the development team and hopefully one day see RTW 3. I have SAI and RTW and plan to buy RJW soon. These games are great and ideal for running on a laptop or low powered computer. I have a beast of a gaming desktop where I play graphically intensive games but SAI, RTW and RTW 2 are perfect for more relaxed gaming on my laptop in the evening when there is invariably nothing on TV that I want to watch. I really hope we can install RTW 2 on more than one computer at the same time. It will be a real issue for me if that is not the case. I know it was decided to not release the game on Steam but now I really wish it was on Steam. Steam primarily is a DRM system and whilst it doesn't stop piracy it does go a long way to deter the casual pirate. With a niche game such as this that should be enough but I understand Valve would want their 30% cut of every copy of RTW 2 sold on Steam. I have to agree with Yemo that this seems like a step backwards to the bad old days of piracy countermeasures.
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Post by gurudennis on Apr 19, 2019 20:16:12 GMT -6
I am supremely disappointed and disillusioned by this decision. It's not going to dissuade me from buying the game (at launch or eventually), but... I had thought that the developers behind this were one of the last vestiges of true old-school game development where customer experience and quality is valued over immediate profits, and the disappointment is bitter.
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Post by iridium on Apr 19, 2019 20:23:48 GMT -6
I have to agree with the others, time has shown DRM does not deliver on its promises and yet it continues to harm actual consumers more than those it is intended to stop. I will still purchase the game, but this is a sad development.
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Post by faennion on Apr 19, 2019 20:27:17 GMT -6
imho, the increased exposure and sales of a steam release would far outweight the 30% cut, plus it would remove the need of a drm
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Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
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Post by Warspite on Apr 19, 2019 20:34:33 GMT -6
imho, the increased exposure and sales of a steam release would far outweight the 30% cut, plus it would remove the need of a drm Agreed. The 70% remaining after Valve has taken it's cut would be a lot more than the 100% the devs get to keep from the far smaller number of sales not being on Steam.
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Post by Grim.Reaper on Apr 19, 2019 20:40:05 GMT -6
Just think also how many casual people run across games on Steam and make an impulse purchase? I have done it a ton of times...just seeing the game in the store front or through one of their sales, gets me to buy things I would have never thought about buying. Regardless whether it is on steam or not, I do think people overthink the whole piracy thing. How many of those folks are going to end up buying the game anyways? I am guessing the pirates have found ways to circumvent just about any scheme anyways. How many customers are lost because of the DRM? Maybe it balances out, but for a smaller game audience, seems like a risk.
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Post by faennion on Apr 19, 2019 20:44:56 GMT -6
Warspite, I think the devs and some other people might think the game is much more niche than it actually is. I mean, look at Dwarf Fortress,the dev is able to live from donations but I do concede that DF is basically a meme and is well known. But also look at Aurora 4x or WITP, in my opinion both of those games are much more complicated than RTW looks to be and yet they are much more well known.The only thing which looks bad/complicated about RTW (2) is the excel-like UI. This game has potential to sell much more copies but I think a lot of people either don't know about the game or don't want to buy from the store (I would never buy from the Matrix games store, for example). And if you're worried about the 30%,take a look at the UnReal World dev, he has both a Steam page, a sales page on his website and a donation page,since you can get the game for free on his website (I might be wrong about a sales page on his website)
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Warspite
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Sky of blue/And sea of green
Posts: 230
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Post by Warspite on Apr 19, 2019 21:06:40 GMT -6
Warspite, I think the devs and some other people might think the game is much more niche than it actually is. I mean, look at Dwarf Fortress,the dev is able to live from donations but I do concede that DF is basically a meme and is well known. But also look at Aurora 4x or WITP, in my opinion both of those games are much more complicated than RTW looks to be and yet they are much more well known.The only thing which looks bad/complicated about RTW (2) is the excel-like UI. This game has potential to sell much more copies but I think a lot of people either don't know about the game or don't want to buy from the store (I would never buy from the Matrix games store, for example). And if you're worried about the 30%,take a look at the UnReal World dev, he has both a Steam page, a sales page on his website and a donation page,since you can get the game for free on his website (I might be wrong about a sales page on his website) I agree. War in the West and War in the East are niche games and yet they are on Steam. Hell, even Command Ops 2 is on Steam and has been for quite a long time. This game has the potential for a much larger consumer base than the developers might think it has. There are hardcore grognards who buy games on Steam. The days are long gone when it was a platform purely for mainstream games. The game could be on Steam and they (NWS) could still sell it on their own store much like Matrix/Slitherine do. It seems to work for them. This game could be exposed to literally millions of people on Steam some of whom would probably be very interested in it.
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Post by orkel on Apr 19, 2019 21:08:42 GMT -6
RTW2 would work on Steam. It's a bit sad they're not planning to do it.
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Post by goodwood on Apr 19, 2019 21:42:18 GMT -6
DRM or licence games only inconveniences the genuine buyer, if someone wants to pirate the game it will be done by the time I have a legitimate copy. In the past buying a game from NWS you to wait for the serial number before playing the game. In Australia, due to the time zone that could be up 24 hours. I guess if your keen enough to want to buy the game you wait as long as you need, a casual buyer moves on. The choice is everyone's to make, avid game fan, casual gamer and developer. All about balance I suppose, if the developer decides to protect his product it is his right, its the buyers choice to to accept the conditions of sale, only the future will tell. Ron
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Post by Antediluvian Monster on Apr 19, 2019 21:47:31 GMT -6
And if you're worried about the 30%,take a look at the UnReal World dev, he has both a Steam page, a sales page on his website and a donation page,since you can get the game for free on his website (I might be wrong about a sales page on his website) UnReal World has a bit weird mixed/parallel business strategy (and frankly, I wonder how effective it is if profits are your primary goal). The game used to be oldschool shareware until earlier in the decade, with various offers from time limited access (based on patch cycles) up to lifetime offer. Then they changed to a mixed donationware and Steam strategy. The free version of the game on the website is available by virtue of donations and will stay there only if sufficient donations keep coming, this version is also patched with delay compared to Steam and lifetime owners. Then there is a version on Steam which is kinda equivalent to the old shareware time limited offers, it will only keep being updated to a certain point (though for many years in any case). The old lifetime offer is no longer advertized, but it's still functional and you can still get it under the counter by privately contacting the developer.
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Post by kungfutreachery on Apr 19, 2019 22:04:49 GMT -6
That is is pretty much what the anti-piracy system does. I am curious (and please don't feel obligated to answer if you do not wish to), why would this cause you to not purchase the game? Bear in mind that I am asking not to judge your decision, but to understand the 'whys' of it better, which may help us with future decisions on such matters.
No problem answering. With today's PCs, various hardware and configuration change more often then in the past. People upgrade all the time nowadays, and don't like the hassle of having to reach out to companies to get new license keys and such. What if the company ever goes out of business and then my hardware changes? I am out of luck? Plus, based on other experience with other companies, there always appears to be countless problems getting it to work and requires too much effort. Don't get me wrong, I understand what your trying to do....but I just don't have time to worry about all these issues any more. Maybe your system will be flawless, but that hasn't been the experience elsewhere. To be honest I am surprised that a very niche game is pirated that much which would lead you to this decision...just feel you might also be losing some legitimate customers because of it. I know some people pirated it because they felt the NWS storefront and distribution system was too sketchy to trust... I guarantee that the manual key distribution system is a big reason many players chose a simpler option. edit: to be clear, i bought the game. But when I showed the link to my friends and told them I was waiting for the store to send me my serial key every single one replied something like "lol you got robbed by Russian scammers"
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